The new Pandora

[Csonti]

I've just finished a game with her playing according to the newest errata items. Most notably with the no incite/pacify on friendly models rule.

I played against the Viks with the diagonal setup. Strategy was Assassinate for me, and Slaughter for my opponent. Bodyguard and Hold out were chosen by both sides.

My 30 SS crew was: Pandy, Teddy, Kade, Candy, 2x Terror Tot and Primordial Magic.

The opponent brought the totem who gives Fast, Taelor, a Ronin, Convict Gunslinger and 8 SS or something like that.

Special terrain was soulstone Vein which was a small piece at the middle of the right edge of the board.

I didn't have an above avarage hand during the whole battle and lost all important initiative flips (turns 4-6) despite the use of 2 SS. Besides that I have made the mistake of taking a small detour with Pandy and spending a turn to get 2 SS from the vein. All this added up to a whole scale loss. However I had a glimps of experience about the new Pandy what I would like to share with you.

She is certainly more playable now, compared to the old, godlike way. On the other hand, she is very slow now, so you can't afford such silliness that I made with the vein. She needs all her mighty 2x3" to get into action in turn 3 or so. However certain things ruin her play quite considerably. The diagonal setup is a nightmare, so is any rough terrain piece, not to mention special circumstances like forested and stuff.

Certainly it was just one game and I didn't even play well but I think the 3" move is a bit too harsh for her now. She is as slow as Nicodem or Ramos but the gents are support casters and Pandy is definetely not.

3" was more than fine with the possibility to incite a friendly modell but now its way too slow. Bringing this up even to 4" would make her a bit more in line with the rest of the masters.

This is just my first impression and I'm very curious about your experiences with her. (I'm not in the beta tester group so I don't know whether they focus on balancing old models or just the new rules and stuff. Maybe they have come up with something too. We shall see.)

[TimeLapse]

I just opened the errata page and its still the one that says Version 1, January 2010, is there a newer one somewhere? I ask this because i look under pandora and there is not errata on the spells you talked about.

Is there a newer errata or am i not seeing the rule chages in this one?

http://wyrd-games.net/rules

[TimeLapse]

Oh found it on the rules forum.

Well the easy ways to move padora are going to be soon gone! But there are some other ways to get her moving.

With baby cane cast lure on her and cheat her to win the duel, or use a sorrow connected to cane to cast it, on candy its self loathing and cheat to win. Her wail also cause a WP Duel. dont forget to get the woes casting the spells that are easy for Pandora to win.

Its a bit more risky now that she has a possablity to get wounded but if you cheat right then you will be moveing in no time, and if you use the 3 woes to cast you can have them connected and to mom and the kids all the way into battle.

Just an idea.

[Melnibonean]

I think Lure would be your best bet. With 8wd Pandora can't really afford to lose too many wd for the sake of moving.

And to add to that I think you'd be best doing Lure with a Sorrow linked to Kade. Otherwise you'd just be cheating Kade out of his own movement (or another action).

Another option would be to use the Poltergeist. Keep it close to her and cast Tantrum or Persistent Distraction.

Or even a Doppelganger could do Mimic Spell and cast Lure.

In fact Lure would be the best bet. Even if she fails she gets to move her walk. You'd just have to be carful of the placement of the casting model/s

Edited June 29, 2010 by Melnibonean

[Satyrwyld]

I played her at Origins in two of the tourneys. The first time, against Seamus, there was a lot of terrain (an elaborate 3D 4x6 sewer setup with hairpin ramps, ladders, and waaaaay too much other obstruction). No way was she making it anywhere with that. The second time was against Lady Justice, on largely flat terrain, and she made it into casting range one turn behind Cade and Candy, just as my opponent was learning why small children on a battlefield are to be feared.

I don't think she needs to be faster, per se, but some way of dealing with large amounts of terrain would be nice.

[Csonti]

Lure is not really a viable choice imho. Firstly it needs a 8+:crows from Kade or the Sorrow. That is only 6 cards and the RJ in the deck. You can hardly build a solid strategy on this. Especially that you need the Lure in the first few turns. So you have 1-2 draws to get the right card. The other problem is that Kade will lose Harmless. In case you do this with a Sorrow then the problem is that he (it?) must be close to the frontline and that's usually not good in case the opponent has some long range options.

Candy's wail could work but a Black Joker can hurt the plans of moving and Pandy herself too. And again, Candy will lose Harmless, so you need another successful cast to make her safe again.

The most useful option is the Poltergeist with Tantrum or Persistent Distraction. That'd work I think.

Btw: anybody played games with her? Theorymachine is fine and useful but real life experience worth much more. (Edit: Satyrwyld's post came meanwhile I typed. Thx! I would love to hear more.)

Edited June 29, 2010 by Csonti

[Q'iq'el]

I don't think she needs to be faster, per se, but some way of dealing with large amounts of terrain would be nice.

Mature Nephilim -> carry?

[Ropetus]

Lure is not really a viable choice imho. Firstly it needs a 8+:crows from Kade or the Sorrow. That is only 6 cards and the RJ in the deck. You can hardly build a solid strategy on this. Especially that you need the Lure in the first few turns. So you have 1-2 draws to get the right card. The other problem is that Kade will lose Harmless. In case you do this with a Sorrow then the problem is that he (it?) must be close to the frontline and that's usually a problem in case the opponent has some long range options.

Not to mention your crew most likely has a much better use for that high :crows to use Pandy's or Kade's Triggers, rather than get some movement for Pandy.

Candy's Wail could work, if you can sacrifice one Walk with her. She is a Casting Expert so you always have a free AP for Charm if needed (although this requires a high card to succeed the cast so is not optimal).

Sorrows linking and using Siphon Magic does not work either since it's an (all) Action so its not usable the turn you Link. Melancholy and Doldrums still work, though they requie high cards for the cast.

I like the Poltergeist idea but I think using Magical Extension for Dementia would work best: it's an easy cast (8 of any suit, easier if you take Primordial Magic Instead) and after that you get to perform a Wp -> 13 Duel before every Action. The Duel is relatively easy for Pandy (only needs a 6 to be cheated in) and you get 4 Actions on first turn for 20" of movement. Walk twice for 14", cast something (doesn't matter if you pass or fail) for 4" more and use Incite on something (doesn't matter if its out of range, as long as you have LoS) for the last 4". If that is not fast enough just use some of the other methods before this for a few extra inches.

This last option is the best IMO because it doesn't require any high suited cards to work. It also uses those medium-low cards from your hand (which you would discard anyway) to pass or fail certain Duels so there is little harm done for future plays. It also only sacrifices 1 AP of your Totem instead of those valuable AP of Candy or Kade.

-Ropetus

[Csonti]

I like the Poltergeist idea but I think using Magical Extension for Dementia would work best: it's an easy cast (8 of any suit, easier if you take Primordial Magic Instead) and after that you get to perform a Wp -> 13 Duel before every Action. The Duel is relatively easy for Pandy (only needs a 6 to be cheated in) and you get 4 Actions on first turn for 20" of movement. Walk twice for 14", cast something (doesn't matter if you pass or fail) for 4" more and use Incite on something (doesn't matter if its out of range, as long as you have LoS) for the last 4". If that is not fast enough just use some of the other methods before this for a few extra inches.

That's a very solid idea. I just don't like the taste of it fluffwise... Casting Dementia on Pandy by her own totem is awkward. I'm always sad when you have to bend and squeez the rules to get some advantage. I wish there would be another option but I can't see any... On the other hand, using Incite/Pacify on your own models for movement wasn't better either.

And yes, the Mature could carry her but this is very pricey way. You are commited to use that 10 SS model who needs to stay in the back for turns instead of going upfield to look for some destruction.

[tenabrae]

I've only played her the once ... but it was post-cuddle... I can't say I found her to lack mobility... you can still target yourself with other abilities that aren't incite/pacify... you just really want to win the duel (i think i was using melancholy ?)... once she's in the thick of it, winning duels against the enemy takes care of the rest... then again, I wasn't relying on extra damage from the sorrows, I was more concentrating on making the enemy fall back while I picked them off one by one with pandora/teddy.

[Melnibonean]

As for me, this is all good theory/training because I've just finished my Pandora crew and I'll be playing my first game with them tomorrow (I hope).

[Raintar]

May I ask where these Pandora changes are I was unable to find them.

In any case she is still top tier because she still is near invincible. Expose Fears+Fading Memory is just too strong of a combo with you have soulstones to work with and with Wp 7 she's probably won't even need sulstones to negate half the damage you would take. And if you fail you take damage equal to expose fears plus one more for each sorrow near her. And let's just say that theres an easy way to get the Sorrows quickly in your face .

[Ropetus]

Raintar: check WS:s thread "Extra Errata Items" in the Rules Forum.

She is not that invincible as she used to be. At least now she can be caught as she can't Pacify her entire Crew to escape to the other end of the battlefield. The biggest problem with her was that she could start the turn far away, use Pacify on her crew to close in and bring a hoard of Sorrows along, cast some spells and totally decimate her enemies and then retreat back to somewhere she cannot even be attacked using Pacify.

Now that she can't Pacify her own crew and can bring a maximum of 3 Sorrows to aid her spellcasting (she won't start the turn within 3" of enemies very likely) she should be much more manageable. Also bringing the Sorrows in requires a Walk Action next to her enemies which eats one spell she could cast. She also can't escape that far away so easily since she can only Pacify/Incite enemy models.

Also, there won't be any Sorrows next to you when you attack her. Of course you kill the Sorrows before even touching her as they're easier kills, cause you Wd loss and they would take the hits anyway due to Martyr.

Also, almost all the crews have something to counter her.

Guild have high Wp and can boost it even further with Governor's Proxy. When everyone in your Crew has Wp 7-9, getting a chance to hit her should be far from impossible. With Guild's damage potential, it only takes a couple of hits to drop her. Guild have some movement control as well, Samael hitting her with Snare should be most fun.

Ressers suffer in the Wp department. However, they have a lot of Wd so they can take a few failures. Also, they can summon the troops back after they die so its no biggie. Unless Pandora nails their Master they are not in terrible trouble and all except McM equal her in Wp. Seamus can even use Trail of Fear to make it very risky for Pandy to attempt an assault anywhere near him. Oh, and try to get a hit on her with a Hanged, she will be mincemeat with that on Wp Duels for the rest of the game. McM has the most trouble with Pandy due to his low Wp and does not have any easy answers to that one.

Arcanists have nothing special in the Wp department but at least Raspy can try hitting her with blasts, avoiding Expose Fears. Ramos can use the same measures as Ressers by summoning back killed units. Marcus has the ultimate anti-Pandora weapon: Howl. -3 to Pandora's Wp and +3 to his crew's should make her cry.

For other Neverborn Lilith uses the Guild method, except she does not have as high Wp. However, only two hits from Lilith's sword should drop Pandora. With her speed it should be possible to dispatch the Sorrows before they become a problem. Zoraida has such a high Wp she will just laugh at Pandora's tricks and could use Crystal Ball to manipulate Pandora's deck in a fashion that not even a Soulstone will help her avoiding a hit.

For Outcasts, Leveticus has it a bit easier, beating Pandy in Wp and having very damaging spell list. Viktoria's have a harder time as Self Loathing will hurt big time with Wp 6 and high damage weapons, not to mention low Wd count. For the Gremlins Pandora is an extremely tough match up but that's mainly because low Wp is their inbuilt weakness. Still, if they manage to empty Pandora's Control Hand, catching her with a Pigcharge should be possible.

So we have that of the 14 other Masters, McM, Viktorias and Som'er have a rough time with her. Lilith, Ramos and Raspy may have a slight disadvantage due to Wp difference. Sonnia, Nicodem and Leveticus should be on an even field and LJ, Perdita, Seamus and Marcus definitely have an advantage over Pandora. Sounds like an even distribution to me.

Of course trying to get to her headlong will prove futile since you will just get damaged by all the Sorrows andshe will run away with Fading Memory. However, if you can soften her web a bit before assaulting, she should be manageable.

-Ropetus

Edited June 29, 2010 by Ropetus

[tenabrae]

Ramos also has counterspell so he's relatively immune to Pandora (she can still use her 0 action but not being a spell she can't make him fall back and he has healing potential). He can also detonate his minions near her to kill her with no comeback.

A sonnia criid gang is even more covered with her advanced counterspell.

[Ropetus]

Ramos also has counterspell so he's relatively immune to Pandora (she can still use her 0 action but not being a spell she can't make him fall back and he has healing potential). He can also detonate his minions near her to kill her with no comeback.

A sonnia criid gang is even more covered with her advanced counterspell.

Ah, totally forgot about those two. Ramos definitely has an edge over her. His Counterspell + summonable solid Wp Minions that deal unavoidable damage just work against her. Same is true for Sonnia, except her Counterspell is more effective but her Minions are less expendable.

Sonnia could even do the sneaky (although risky) trick of not Counterspelling when holding the Red Joker. Use that one + Soulstone on Resisting instead and reflect Project Emotions back on Pandora instead (if you have Governor's Proxy, that's Ca 6 vs. Wp 9, granting you the edge). If that one works, it should turn Pandora into a crybaby.

-Ropetus