How to use Lilith.

[Snake_Pliskenn]

Hi all!

The thing is I am thinking buying the Lilith starter mainly because Lilith's miniature is awesome and her profile can be summed up with the word "POWERHOUSE".

However, I have some questions about her and the Nephilims:

1) How to use her properly? Some tactica here will be appreciated .

2) Why does she need blood if, apparently, she does not use it?! This is mainly a rules questions I can't understand. I am starting to think it is an errata.

3) How much Nephilims do you use in the crew? Is it better to take small Nephs and start growing them into Mature ones?

Thank you all!

[Neverborn403]

1) Lilith is a beast in close combat obviously, she has fast and her sword always gets a plus flip. She is also very good at crowd control with things like earthquake and Transposition. Her defense is the highest in the game next to Perdita so she can run up against most models and rip them a new one and if she gets into trouble, see above spells.

2) She herself does not need the blood counters BUT the terror tots "grow" spell allows them to use counters on them OR another Nephilim within 6 inches which includes her. In theory turn one you could burn two soulstones to make a blood counter and then companion a terror tot to grow if you wanted to get an extra 4 ss worth of models on the table turn one. If you REALLY wanted to you could actually do it twice except you would have to wait until your next activation to grow the second tot.

3) This is all up to the player really. I usually used 3 terror tots a mature nephilim and a doppelganger in 30ss games leaving 3 ss for her to make more counters or to get a 4th tot if you feel like you need more models. That has worked well for me since the tots can grow pretty quickly if you have the ss on lilith and soon you have a bunch of pretty tough young nephilim flying around to rip things up. This of course is just a matter of personal preference so I am sure you will hear different things from different people and there are many different effective ways to use them. I hope this helps! Enjoy

Edited June 19, 2010 by Neverborn403

[Chucklemonkey]

You are quite right, she is indeed a powerhouse. Have found myself having a lot of success with her recently.

In terms of your specific questions they seem to have been answered above.

As stated her defence is excellent AND she has a defensive trigger which drops an opposing models CB by 2 if they miss a melee attack.

I tend to find I use transposition a lot and the combination of it, the cherub's companian, and brood mother, can set up some very interesting plays.

She burns through a lot of soulstones, so make sure you have plenty at the start of the game.

I have tended to take a mature nephilim but it draws a lot of attention very early so I would recommend taking a young neph or making the growing of a tot into one a fairly early priority.

Sounds like you know she is the one for you but just so you know, she is a lot of fun to play.

[notmikehill]

If you play a strictly Neverborn Faction, Lilith is probably my favorite caster for Treasure Hunt and Slaughter.

One of the things I really like about Lilith (when I have the right cards in my hand) I usually Transposition her with terror tots, and make good use of her trigger to cycle through some cards out of my hand and keep it heavy with Masks and Tomes (Masks for grow, Tomes for toss aside.)

The only real problems I have with Lilith is burning through her Soulstone pool too fast and not defensively, or never having the best cards to use for her and her gang using their spells and triggers.

[Melnibonean]

A good tactic I've used pretty often is to companion a mature nephlim. With this combo activating together and hitting the same target/s you can almost garantee to kill what every you want to kill (including masters).

The mature neph's diving charge can be very usefull in this instance.

[Snake_Pliskenn]

I am pretty happy with your answers. Actually, when I have read in the rulebook that Lilith is also a Nephilim... Whoa! These are definitely good news!

I have some strategies in mind with her, but I still have some questions. Here I come!

4) (I am completing the list ) Who are the worst Lilith's enemies? In the book, reading the Malifaux background, it is obvious that the Guild is looking for her. In addition, Perdita and The Ortegas seem to be the Neverborn Hunters of the Guild. In game terms is this fact true?

5) I am really interested in one of your suggestions: Using the Doppelganger with Lilith can be interesting. I am thinking in duplicate the "imaginary forest". It could be a real pain to shooting crews, like the Ortegas . And combined with the diving charge of the Mature Nephilim... God, what a mess!

6) The Lilith's rule: Master of Malifaux. At the beginning I thought it was a total "OVERPOWERED" rule. You have to learn how to use it, it is true, but damn it, this girl is able to cross the battlefield like (Spanish expression ON) Peter at home (Spanish expression OFF). If you prefer, like Christopher Lambert in The Inmortals .

However, I read the errata yesterday and the rule has changed quite a bit. My question about it is really simple: Is it enough to let Lilith charge through her own imaginary forest? If it is, it is very possible that I buy Lilith's starter this afternoon . Damn, I am going to buy it anyway! !

[Melnibonean]

There are a few other things that she can do. Like casting the illusionary forest on herself for some cover.

Even though she can no longer charge through intervening terrain she can cast spells through it and move through it. With Fast if she is hidden behind a terrain piece she can move through it and still have 2AP to charge with (or two AP to attack with).

I don't know how the Doppleganger will work with her. I have the box plus 2 young neph and her cherub totem. But I'm going to get a pack of waldgeist to work with her. This way Lilith's illusionary forrest becomes another dangerous tool in her armoury.

[Chucklemonkey]

4) (I am completing the list ) Who are the worst Lilith's enemies? In the book, reading the Malifaux background, it is obvious that the Guild is looking for her. In addition, Perdita and The Ortegas seem to be the Neverborn Hunters of the Guild. In game terms is this fact true?

Yes, the Ortega's are the Guild Neverborn hunters. I would say that of all the Neverborn Masters they have the least advantage against Lilith. I say this because they have a lot of boosts to willpower, and Pandora and Zoraida are a little more WP orientated.

[Ropetus]

Lady Justice might be a tough matchup for her. She hands down beats Lilith in melee ability: with her Sword Style spell she can get Cb11 which can reliably hit her Df8 and does same damage, except she has Critical Strike for some extra punch. She even ignores Disappear if (when) a Totem casts Blind Justice. Without any ranged weapons Lilith's Crew is pretty much forced to confront her if they want to do anything to the opposing Crew.

Pandora could also be a problem with all the Wp targeting "screw you" effects.

-Ropetus

[Snake_Pliskenn]

I haven't seen Pandora's profile yet. However, I have seen Lady J and she is a truly melee monster. Though, I think that, in an hipotetically match againts the blind female, Lilith has some advantages:

-The Nephs are one of the fastest crew by themselves (Pandora seems to be the fastest of the game, isn't she?). So, you are more able to choose when you want to charge and which enemy is going to be crushed.

-With a smart use of the covers and Lilith's tricks, Death Marshalls are going to suffer to get a clear shot. This could be the key to maintain a balanced fight when you get them!

-It is true that Nephs are a CQC based crew. And it is also true that Lady J can erase Lilith. But Lilith can also kick Lady J's awesome butt if she charges the blind swordmistress first. Actually, Lady J's defense is not impressive at all! It is just a charge order matter. And Lilith is faster than Lady J.

However, I agree Lady J is maybe the Guild's most menacing character against Lilith. But I will tell you a secret... I play both of them . My friends prefer others Masters.

On the other hand, I have been watching the grass-dogs profile and they are a good reinforce for Lilith's crew, indeed. However, I think they are better in larger matchs, mainly because they are expensive. Two of them get 12 SS!

[shekbo]

Actually, I've found Leveticus to be a nasty foe for Lilith. This works out for me usually, because I play Levi. He can take down big nasty models like the mature nephs without much trouble, so he's not too fazed by the growing tactic, and you've really got to watch out for unnatural wasting on Lilith, it can do 7 damage. Really the only way to get him is to get the hollowed waifs, which a smart Levi player can make all but impossible to get to. Plus he's got Alyce who has the bag of tricks spell which can really hurt models trying to get into melee with caltrops doing 2 damage to you if you end your move too close.

[notmikehill]

Another poor match up I tend to have is Seamus. A player in my local group uses a fear bomb method using Seamus to lower WP and the hanged to tear apart models and cause terrifying checks. Any gang would have problems with this but like I said back in a previous post I use her soulstone pool for less defensive purposes, which can tend to make using those last few stones game changing.

[Snake_Pliskenn]

Well, Seamus and Leveticus are, imho, two of the best Masters in the game. Seamus is a really nasty guy and Leveticus, if he is used properly, seems to be a headache.

I hope I will be able to test Lilith's crew this saturday. In fact, I have thought several battle plans. My friends are choosing their army at this time, but I think they are going to play Resurreccionists, so I suppouse Seamus has real options to be the next enemy of my beloved Lilith. I will share with you who are going to be my enemies really soon.

Meanwhile... How do I beat Seamus or Leveticus? Does anyone have a good plan?

[notmikehill]

To really beat Seamus I just focus my hand and soulstones on surviving his ridiculous WP checks and attacks and focus on my objectives to beat him. Most of the time my Schemes are Bodyguard and Holdout along side of hopefully a better Strategy like Treasure Hunt or Recon so as to not have to deal with attacking his forces or trying to kill the turd head on.