Terrain and Hunter

[Vitzh]

Just to make sure I understand things correctly, if I have a height 2 model firing at a height 1 model and in between there is a wall 1.5" high this is legal as they can both draw LoS to each other. The wall position is irrelevant, and there is no way to position the Ht1 model to block LoS, even in the shadow of the wall.

Now if the Ht1 model is close enough to the wall it gains hard cover. This is where Hunter causes a problem. Hunter doesn't just drop hard cover to soft cover it strips all defensive benefits of the terrain.

Isn't this all a bit silly? If the wall where somewhere between the two models it would make sense they could see each other from the right position. The fact that a model with hunter not only sees through the wall to fire at a target(which should be out of LoS) but suffers no penalty while doing so makes most non-LoS blocking terrain useless. Or worse then useless as they slow down melee troops while making perfect shooting galleries for ranged armies.

[Lucidicide]

Isn't this all a bit silly?

I guess. Walls do provide cover against range shooting, just as you'd hope they would. There are only two types of cover, and that difference is indicated by the type of terrain.

Hunter is an ability that ignores cover.

I'll grant you that a 1.5" wall given the wrong angle will block sight in reality but doesn't in the game currently. I believe LoS is something that is being covered in errata 2.0 (but I may be wrong about this).

In any case, the whole point of Hunter is to eliminate cover. I don't think that's the silly part. The silly part more has to do with LoS.

Regardless, the right balance of terrain and you should have other options other than the walls slowing you down.

[Lordfishbane]

The wall you describe sounds more like a fence, if it does not block line of sight.

Hunter does not allow you to "see through" (forest exception) stuff just takes into mind that Nino can shoot a tick off a mule!! Real life hunters (and snipers) can take shots a crazy angles with only small portions of their target showing and still make a kill shot.

[Sholto]

I would like to see that errata, because my gaming group and I have become so confused by line of sight that we have just adopted true line of sight/ WYSIWYG. I know it's not in the rules, but it is easy and intuitive.

[MadArcanist]

• Take your tape measure and turn it side-ways.
  
• Then draw a line using it from your base to his base.
  
• As long as there is nothing in the way and you can successfully touch his base at some point then you can see him.
  

That's what we do at my group and it works wonders for Line-of-sight problems.

[Lucidicide]

• Take your tape measure and turn it side-ways.
  
• Then draw a line using it from your base to his base.
  
• As long as there is nothing in the way and you can successfully touch his base at some point then you can see him.
  

That's what we do at my group and it works wonders for Line-of-sight problems.

Yeah, but the model isn't its base. It also has a height. I might be misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you don't really take the height into account.

We play that if one or both models is of greater height than any intervening terrain, there is LoS. Ht2 - 1" - Ht1 has sight. There are certain angles where this becomes absurd. For the most part, we manage to avoid this, but in those few situations where it becomes absurd, we tend to move to more of a true LoS.

[tenabrae]

The LoS rules and cover rules conflict, we're still waiting for clarity on which takes precendence.

We've been playing as long as the firing model it tall enough it has LoS (i.e. ignore height of the target unless it's +2 height over the cover).

[Q'iq'el]

The LoS rules and cover rules conflict, we're still waiting for clarity on which takes precendence.

We've been playing as long as the firing model it tall enough it has LoS (i.e. ignore height of the target unless it's +2 height over the cover).

It's not that they conflict. It's that there are two separate checks and I think it isn't worded clearly enough.

1st check is the check for LoS. You draw the line through any piece of terrain and there is no LoS to the target.

2nd check happens only if the terrain is "covering" or "obscuring".

- if the terrain the LoS crosses is "covering", you check the terrain ht, the target ht and the shooter/caster ht. If either model's ht is higher than the terrain, it gives cover of the proper type, but the target is visible. If target's ht is more than 3x the cover ht, the target is visible and gets no cover.

- if the terrain blocking the line is "obscuring", you check if the model inside has more than 3" of that terrain in front of it. If not, you can see it but it gets soft cover. If the model is deeper than 3" within the terrain, or the model is behind such terrain (even if the terrain has less than 3"), you cannot see that model at all.

[Lordfishbane]

True that the base is not the model, but when measuring range do you measure from the center of the model also? Or use the edge of the base as directed by the rules.

If your group wants to use house rules on whats acceptable/or not, no saying you cant.

Height would/should only come into play if no LoS can be drawn to target, all terrain effects,conditions, and heights should be discussed before the game starts so there are no misunderstandings.

In my experience issues like this usually come in the last turn or two of a close game where tension is running high and peeps are trying to secure a win.