Pandora Turn 1 Kill

[Amarel]

Her Df is definitely not high, so shooting/melee work very nicely against her (yes, she can redirect damage to Woes, but that's something else)

But to even target her you have to do a WP->WP duel, and with a WP of 7 she's already got a big advantage (a few models have the same, but only one has higher (from memory)). The couple of times I have managed to win that duel I've then been sucker-punched by her using one of her many Soul Stones. She could have a Def of 20 and I wouldn't have noticed .

[heckler]

her wp is 7 which is higher than average but not absurd. it should be higher than average since that's what she does. it's the fact that she can chain around a bunch of things that makes it ridiculous.

there's 2 models with higher wp, zoreida and Leveticus.

but if you pass it, then with def 2 she's low. sure, with a soulstone it can get higher but many masters have a cb of 7 with soulstones of their own. and with 8 wounds she can be a bit fragile.

[Amarel]

her wp is 7 which is higher than average but not absurd. it should be higher than average since that's what she does.

Not arguing that, just saying that it makes her very difficult to hit; giving her a huge defensive bonus and making her low Def an additional speed bump rather than a mitigating factor for her other abilities.

sure, with a soulstone it can get higher but many masters have a cb of 7 with soulstones of their own. and with 8 wounds she can be a bit fragile.

CB doesn't matter, it's not getting past her defense that's tricky, it's the WP test that makes her so hard to hit.

That high WP also gives her the offensive advantage over every other model in the game bar three (Levi, Zoraida and Hollow Waifs) - i.e. when she casts one her spells, she has the advantage in any duel against everyone else. The fact that she has the joint second highest Soul Stones cache of any Master, so she's generally got spare to burn on the off chance that she's not won the duel, is just the icing on the cake.

Anyway, kinda off topic now so... .

[Murphy'sLawyer]

New to the forum and game but I just had to say why not just limit the number of sorrows that can link to a model. I mean any more than three sorrows linked to any model seems ruthless weather it is a friend or foe model.

But then again I am just getting into the game.

[heckler]

only one model can link to another.

but the sorrow linked to panda has a sorrow linked to it and so on. i know the rule needs to be changed, that's why i posted. i'm just not official, so i'm letting the powers that be know about it.

[RitualNet]

The problem is if they cuddle her too much, they remove one of the crews as being viable to play. Maybe limit the amount of sorrows that can link to her, or, they take damage when they use their abilities... that way the sorrows can help her do an alpha-strike, but then become progressively weaker, until even a simple blast will finish them off.

[Joona]

CB doesn't matter, it's not getting past her defense that's tricky, it's the WP test that makes her so hard to hit.

That high WP also gives her the offensive advantage over every other model in the game bar three (Levi, Zoraida and Hollow Waifs) - i.e. when she casts one her spells, she has the advantage in any duel against everyone else. The fact that she has the joint second highest Soul Stones cache of any Master, so she's generally got spare to burn on the off chance that she's not won the duel, is just the icing on the cake.

Anyway, kinda off topic now so... .

Cb7 vs. Df8 is all fine and dandy but Wp6 vs. Wp7 is not? Most Masters and a rather large number of minions have a Wp6 that shouldn't make it too hard to get her. And she, like everyone else, will run out of cards and soulstones eventually. The biggest problem with the current errata is that she can drag around a whole army of Sorrows with her and move way too much. Because of this it's enough to get one or two attacks in to kill the enemy master. This probably wasn't the intent.

Also, when casting spells she loses her advantage. Her Ca6 doesn't give her much of an edge against the Wp6 of most masters. And she's not winning Wp duels when casting spells, thus not allowing her to move around. Of course the enemy model is still losing a Wp duel and take wounds.

Possible fixes are probably that pushes don't work with Link again like before the errata. Or the ability to use multiple Incite/Pacify per turn is taken away from her (maybe only once each). Or she'll only be able to use them on enemy models. Or maybe losing Wp duels will start affecting her own models too. Maybe even a combination of these. The push thingy might need a fix anyway as it also makes it possible for Leveticus to throw the Desolation Engine quite far on any turn if need be though it's far easier to anticipate/ruin the Engine bomb than Pandora bomb as it takes several activations to get close.

Murphy's Lawyer, limiting the number of Sorrows that can link to a model doesn't help here. Each model has only one other model Linked to it.

edit. Of course with this tactic Pandora is at risk too, albeit small. Because Incite/Pacify aren't spells, you can't decide to lose the duel so you'll have to cheat the sorrows flip down at times or Pandoras flip up, which ever is easier. Pull a Black Joker at a critical time and you're out of luck. Rasputina will really like Pandora being surrounded by hordes of relatively low Df models to trigger blasts off of to hit Pandy.

Edited April 10, 2010 by Joona

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Murphy's Lawyer, limiting the number of Sorrows that can link to a model doesn't help here. Each model has only one other model Linked to it.

I see, well then make it so that sorrows can't link with friendly insignificant models, or something like that. Edited April 11, 2010 by Murphy'sLawyer

[Captain.Danger]

that might help, or just say that they cannot link to friendly sorrows

[Murphy'sLawyer]

that might help, or just say that they cannot link to friendly sorrows

Exactly, no nurfing needed really.

[Justin]

that might help, or just say that they cannot link to friendly sorrows

Link is an ability shared by multiple models. If it is changed, it will likely be a change that is applied across the board. So, "this model may not link to friendly sorrows" is not a likely fix.

However, Pandora worked just fine before the errata. My guess is she'll go back to working exactly how she originally did. All they need is a clause in link saying that pushes will not cause the linked model to move into base to base.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Justin

[Amarel]

Cb7 vs. Df8 is all fine and dandy but Wp6 vs. Wp7 is not?

Woah there, I'm not saying that something is fine and something else is not, I'm merely commenting that - as someone who plays against her - I find 'Expose Fears' to be far more frustrating to face, than her ability to bomb around the board.

To respond to your actual question, there are only 3 models in the game with DF8 (Zoraida, Perdita & the Voodoo Doll) so I'm not sure it's the best example, but yes I think a WP duel before you get a chance to target her, that will cause you at least one wound if you're within 12" of her and will allow her to quite likely push out of range of you if you don't make it, which you start at a disadvantage with and then have to have a standard CB vs DF duel afterwards if you do pass it, is more powerful than just facing DF8. I believe maths is on my side here, too, for whatever value his vote is worth .

Most Masters and a rather large number of minions have a Wp6 that shouldn't make it too hard to get her.

WP6 doesn't matter, you need WP7 to have the advantage against her when attacking and that's much less common.

Also, when casting spells she loses her advantage. Her Ca6 doesn't give her much of an edge against the Wp6 of most masters.

It gives her a massive edge, it means that she has the advantage. On an equal draw she wins, if the draw is cheated then she has the advantage of going second and if she has a red joker she can't be beaten (which obviously cascades down because if she has a thirteen, then only a red joker can beat it, and so on). The chance of my opponent having a face card in his hand is relatively low, the chance of me having his face card +1 is even lower.

Possible fixes are probably that pushes don't work with Link again like before the errata. Or the ability to use multiple Incite/Pacify per turn is taken away from her (maybe only once each). Or she'll only be able to use them on enemy models. Or maybe losing Wp duels will start affecting her own models too. Maybe even a combination of these. The push thingy might need a fix anyway as it also makes it possible for Leveticus to throw the Desolation Engine quite far on any turn if need be though it's far easier to anticipate/ruin the Engine bomb than Pandora bomb as it takes several activations to get close.

She's very difficult to balance, as we've seen from her going from a model no-one seemed to get at the beginning to the powerhouse she is now. I actually quite like the fact that she can bomb around the board and, potentially, get stuck somewhere unfavourable if my opponent overreaches - I think that feels like 'Pandora', and if you take it away I think she'll be a lot less fun to play. Sure the chain-link is a problem, but I don't feel that the linked-push is (just personal opinion, of course). I'd mostly like just a good chance to hit her when I do eventually catch her :fight:

[Joona]

I'm merely commenting that - as someone who plays against her - I find 'Expose Fears' to be far more frustrating to face, than her ability to bomb around the board.

...

I'd mostly like just a good chance to hit her when I do eventually catch her :fight:

Somehow I'm getting the feeling that you've been forced to play against her more than you'd like to It's just that her edge on other models isn't any bigger than in any other duel where your Cb/Ca/Wp is one lower than the Df/Wp of your enemy. I think Mr. Math is on my side here, I think.

Of course she has the ability to push away from you if she wins and you take a wound. Still, it's pretty much the same to use Wp6 to hit Pandora as it is to use Cb7 to hit Lilith/Perdita. You miss Pandora, you take a wound and probably won't get to hit her again, unless your doing it with a ranged weapon. Miss Perdita and she might shoot back for a rather massice damage (up to 7), miss Lilith and you're at an even bigger disadvantage to try to hit her again. Still, a Hanged could give Pandora a on her Wp duels for the rest of the game which ruins her. Marcus can give her a Wp4 every turn she's within 8" of him, which also ruins her. Use Crooked men and she can't get close to your Master. You can also get her with blasts and pulses that cause damage without any problems of her running away.

It's just that not every list will have an easy time dealing with her. That's pretty much the same with every Master and I like it that way. In my opinion the biggest problem at the moment isn't that she's hard to hit. It's that right now, she can drag a whole crew of Sorrows with her and one shot almost every model in the game by winning a Wp duel.

[Amarel]

It's just that her edge on other models isn't any bigger than in any other duel where your Cb/Ca/Wp is one lower than the Df/Wp of your enemy. I think Mr. Math is on my side here, I think.

This is true, but as you say it's the push away and wound if you fail or the need to then to do a second duel (relatively easy CB vs DF) that make it so painful feeling. Lilith's -CB trick is also very nasty .

It's just that not every list will have an easy time dealing with her. That's pretty much the same with every Master and I like it that way.

It's probably worth everyone showing their Masters in their sig so as people can see where their point of view comes from. Playing the Vik's (who are flimsy and easy to hit) I do look on those who are harder to hit / kill with some jealousy, although I do try to be non-partisan when commenting on the boards.

[Sliver Chocobo]

I wasn't saying that this was the best strategy ever

The strategy was to kill the master, assassinate i think its called?

It was a chain of links, one sorrow to pandora and the rest linkning to the other sorrows. pandora then incites/pacifies all of her sorrows, moving a total of 28". in the description of link it just says that you place the sorrow into base contact(so you can move them further)

she then incited raspy and soulstoned the total to be in his favor and did 8 wounds with one incite.

I don't think this is right

(although i could be wrong)

But i thought you couldn't link somthing that is linked to somthing else, so all the sorrow will have to in a circle around Pandora, which still doesn't work beacuse Pandora can't walk through her sorrrows and when her abilty push her 4 inches after winning a wp duel, she isn't walking so won't the break link (not saying panda doen't work, just that i don't this idea works)

Edited April 12, 2010 by Sliver Chocobo

[Omadon]

Simple answer. Add this line of text to link:

"Cannot be used on other models that also possess the (0)Link ability"

The change covers all of the game-breakingly weird stuff you can do with an army full of sorrows, but is inconsequential to everything else. Thoughts?

Edited April 12, 2010 by Omadon

[Amarel]

Simple answer. Add this line of text to link:

"Cannot be used on other models that also possess the (0)Link ability"

The change covers all of the game-breakingly weird stuff you can do with an army full of sorrows, but is inconsequential to everything else. Thoughts?

Would that not hobble (heh) the SPA's, that rely on linking to each other to get a decent move?

It could be a rule just for the Sorrows.

"Incorporeal: A Sorrow can use the (0)Link ability on another Sorrow."

[Ropetus]

Would that not hobble (heh) the SPA's, that rely on linking to each other to get a decent move?

Abominations don't have Link. They only have a rule which allows them to tag along other Constructs.

Disallowing Linking to models with Link should stop the most ridiculous tricks. Pandora could still run around with 3 Sorrows with her which should be manageable.

-Ropetus

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Abominations don't have Link. They only have a rule which allows them to tag along other Constructs.

Disallowing Linking to models with Link should stop the most ridiculous tricks. Pandora could still run around with 3 Sorrows with her which should be manageable.

-Ropetus

My thought exactly. Wait...are you in my head.

Has anyone heard if they have come up with any ideas on how to solve this at Wyrd?

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

It's being discussed.

[ork56]

Use Crooked men and she can't get close to your Master. You can also get her with blasts and pulses that cause damage without any problems of her running away.

How do crooked men help out? She can push past them on the way in and back out , so not ending her activation within 2"

Many blasts and pulses have a Wp resist, and as we already know, she has one of the top Wp in the game

one point on this not stated yet is that a lot of Ortegas have stubborn, giving +2 Wp on defence - this crew seems to have the best tools for taking her down?

[ork56]

Also, when casting spells she loses her advantage. Her Ca6 doesn't give her much of an edge against the Wp6 of most masters. And she's not winning Wp duels when casting spells, thus not allowing her to move around.

If her spells have a Wp resist, then she has won a Wp duel and can therefore inflict wounds and move?

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

If her spells have a Wp resist, then she has won a Wp duel and can therefore inflict wounds and move?

That's incorrect.

She succeeded in a Simple Ca Duel, not a Wp Duel.

[ork56]

Thanks WS, that will help next time I take on Pandy and friends

[Amarel]

Abominations don't have Link. They only have a rule which allows them to tag along other Constructs.

That'll teach me to reply when I don't have the book in front of me.

:spank: