How do you usually lose with Pandora?

[Csonti]

Strange question for the Pandora owners but I have some problem with my favorite emo chick.

I win too much games with her. Yes, you got it right. Too much. Most of them is without any real excitement. Usually I just incite/pacify in around turn 2 or 3, drop some linked Sorrows near the enemy, use Project Emotion on the most serious threat(s) (mostly with trigger), cast Self-Loathing on the top gun, incite/pacify the crippled enemy and return to safety. The remnants can be dealt with during the next couple of turns.

So far I have played a lot of games and only Perdita with the Governor's Proxy and without Loco stopped Pandora. Anything else was destroyed and/or defeated on many kinds of terrain with every possible strategy match-up etc.

I don't want to show false modesty. I'm quite good at tabletop games but so are my partners. For example in WM/H I've never felt that kind of superiority and I was beaten regularly by the hands of the same opponents.

Nowdays my friends look at me in a strange way, and I'm almost sure that something evil lurks in those eyes. I don't want to be the victim of a linch-law. Help!

So what's the trick, how do you lose with Pandora?

(Despite what it looks like, this is a serious post. At least most part of it.)

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Get shot by Perdita...

Or Lady Justice's crew.

[huntroll]

Take only Terror Tots with her. Or Ronins. Either this, or stay always two meters away from us and run if you see a rope in our hands

[nilus]

Well I don't play Pandora but here is how I beat her

1) Take out the Sorrows first! They are easy to kill and without them Pandora damage potential gets taken out pretty quick

2) If I have someone who can ignore WP duel, After the Sorrows are dead I go for Pandora. Death Marshalls enhanced by LJ and Perdita work well at this.

3) For anyone else, I tend to ignore her, wipe out the rest of her friends and just concentrate on my strategy and schemes.

[Thoughttrauma]

move your model within 4'' of the table edge, activate Hamelin, rinse, repeat.

[karn987]

Perdita *nods*

Besides her, generally it comes down to the cards. If I get hosed on a turn when I risk Pandora to level the enemy and rely on the wp vs wp duel to protect her. Thats basically how I lose when I do. But Im usually to careful for that to get me any way.

I have lost to Sonnia because of her counter magic, I just couldn't get through it enough to do the damage I needed. I was playing the base starter set and Kade died mid way through when the Witchlings ganged up on him and essentially chain detonated all over him and Candy.

[Rathnard]

Out of 3 games with Pandy I haven't lost one yet. That said, the first game was a treasure hunt where halfway through, we both decided that Pandora had effectively won (she had both my and his token) and went for a straight fight.

I quickly discovered that Rasputinas blast attacks can ignore Pandora's WP duels if there's another model close enough to target.

In another game I was almost killed by an alpha-striking Victoria (he had a red joker on hand and just went for broke), although it might not have been so bad if I'd remembered to keep that sorrow linked.

So there you go. Alpha strikes vs. Pandy and Spells with blast effects. That seems to be what kills her. Spells that ignore her WP duels (Lady Justice/Perdita in particular) would also hurt, although liberal use of pacify/incite can help deal with that.

[EricJ]

It's funny, when the game first came out, we heard over and over how bad Pandora was, then people learned her, and things changed. She just took a learning curve to play right. Now I think people have started to play her right, but the learning curve is now about people playing against her, and that curve takes some time as well. Just my thoughts

[Pipeline]

this might be one for the rules forum, but i figure id post it here since its sorta on topic

(she had both my and his token)

this has come up in some of my games and has got me thinking...a model cant pick up a treasure counter if it already has one, right?

because if its holding one, picking up the other causes it to drop the one it's holding.

i've guilty of this myself, but after reading some of the posts here, im thinking i was in the wrong

[ork56]

where did you see it written that you can only carry one treasure token?

[greenstuff_gav]

2) If I have someone who can ignore WP duel, After the Sorrows are dead I go for Pandora. Death Marshalls enhanced by LJ and Perdita work well at this.

The Box Opens: Models within 12" of this model lose any immunities to Wp duels

i had Pandora walk forward with 3 Sorrows in B2B... cast Dementia on Sybelle and a Rotten Belle, cheated Mental Anguish trigger on both and 1/3 of my force was suddenly 12" away (they were close to Seamus...) and can't do anything that turn (must use that activation to Rally)

i do lose games more than i win (i'm statistically unlucky; Confrontation Grand Tournament, needing 2+, i rolled 8 1s in a row!) but against Pandora is the only time i am willing to simply give up there and then and is close to putting me off playing Malifaux entirely

[Gremlin Luv]

Pandora games are over half of what I play against, and I hate it. She is the most obnoxiously boring master to play against. But I play Perdita, Lady J, and Seamus. I haven't tried Seamus yet...but other than that I've not lost to her.

[Ropetus]

The Box Opens: Models within 12" of this model lose any immunities to Wp duels

Ignore is not the same thing as immune. The errata has made a clear difference between them:

“Some models are able to ignore or are immune to game

effects:

• When something ignores X, other models are not

affected by X when resolving the effect.

• A model immune to X cannot be affected by X

when resolving the effect. Duels requiring X do not

occur.”

Pandora only strips other models of Wp Duel immunities. Models that ignore Wp Duels still do so. This makes Pandora especially Vulnerable against Perdita and models under the effect of Blind Justice.

-Ropetus

[Csonti]

i had Pandora walk forward with 3 Sorrows in B2B... cast Dementia on Sybelle and a Rotten Belle, cheated Mental Anguish trigger on both and 1/3 of my force was suddenly 12" away (they were close to Seamus...) and can't do anything that turn (must use that activation to Rally)

If I read this mini battle report correctly you played some things incorrectly.

1st: Mental Angush in itself do not forces models to fall back. You need another failed Resist Duel to make this happen. Ie. cast another spell on them. The one that triggered the trigger (in this case Dementia) does not good for this since the trigger is activated after the victim failed its Resist Duel.

2nd: Out of activation fall back is not an inmediate move. You have to wait for the next activation to do this. Then in the next one you can rally. And just after that, during the 3rd activation can you move freely again. Nasty-nasty trigger it is.

[Pipeline]

where did you see it written that you can only carry one treasure token?

From the Errata:

Treasure Hunt

Add to the end of the first paragraph: "A model drops the Treasure Counter in base contact with itself before changing position on the table by any effect other than the Walk Action or before being removed form play.

interact is not a walk action. therefore, if you have a treasure token and interact with another one, you drop the one you are holding.

again, thats just the way i see it. i'll make a post in the rules

[Ropetus]

1st: Mental Angush in itself do not forces models to fall back. You need another failed Resist Duel to make this happen. Ie. cast another spell on them. The one that triggered the trigger (in this case Dementia) does not good for this since the trigger is activated after the victim failed its Resist Duel.

I disagree. When the trigger is activated, the defender has just failed a Resist Duel, so the trigger should activate immediately. The interpretation that this is not the case really opens up a can of worms (you could for example move another model in melee with the target to the other side of he model and force it to flee straight in the middle of your web).

2nd: Out of activation fall back is not an inmediate move. You have to wait for the next activation to do this. Then in the next one you can rally. And just after that, during the 3rd activation can you move freely again. Nasty-nasty trigger it is.

Yes, it is not an immediate move and doesn't happen until the start of their activation. However, it would not miss two activations due to Fall Back. Nowhere does it state that the double Wk movement counts as the activation for the Falling Back model. It is just stated that this movement happens at the start of the model's activation and that the model cannot move for the rest of its activation and it receives on all flips. Falling back is crippling, but not THAT crippling.

From the Errata:

Treasure Hunt

Add to the end of the first paragraph: "A model drops the Treasure Counter in base contact with itself before changing position on the table by any effect other than the Walk Action or before being removed form play.

interact is not a walk action. therefore, if you have a treasure token and interact with another one, you drop the one you are holding.

Interact does not change the model's position. Therefore it does not force it to drop the counter. You would force a model to drop it when casting or fighting as well? Those are also actions other than Walk.

-Ropetus

Edited February 25, 2010 by Ropetus

[Thoughttrauma]

I have not seen that ruling.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

From the Errata:

Treasure Hunt

Add to the end of the first paragraph: "A model drops the Treasure Counter in base contact with itself before changing position on the table by any effect other than the Walk Action or before being removed form play.

interact is not a walk action. therefore, if you have a treasure token and interact with another one, you drop the one you are holding.

again, thats just the way i see it. i'll make a post in the rules

(1) Interact isn't changing your position on the table either...

[Pipeline]

thanks for the clarification!

[nilus]

The Box Opens: Models within 12" of this model lose any immunities to Wp duels

Sorry I wasn't thinking. I mean "See the unseen" or the spell LJ casts. Basically lets you shoot or hit Perdita without a WP duel. Thats what I mean, I knew she stripped immunities.

My point was unless you have someone whos could at hitting her then your best bet is too kill the rest of her crew and just ignore her. She isn't nearly as powerful without Sorrows backing her up.

[Csonti]

I disagree. When the trigger is activated, the defender has just failed a Resist Duel, so the trigger should activate immediately.

You are right. I forgot that Ca triggers are activated before defender resists. Thx!

Yes, it is not an immediate move and doesn't happen until the start of their activation. However, it would not miss two activations due to Fall Back. Nowhere does it state that the double Wk movement counts as the activation for the Falling Back model. It is just stated that this movement happens at the start of the model's activation and that the model cannot move for the rest of its activation and it receives on all flips. Falling back is crippling, but not THAT crippling.

Here I still stick to my version. From the rulebook (p79 Falling Back last sentence of 1st paragraph):

The model's activation then ends.

A few paragraphs later under the new theme Rallying:

A model that has fallen back must spend its subsequent activation rallying.

To me that means 2 different activations but WEiRD sKeTCH is lurking around this thread so maybe he will say a final word on this.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Csonti

[Ropetus]

Falling Back last sentence of 1st paragraph):

The model's activation then ends.

A few paragraphs later under the new theme Rallying:

A model that has fallen back must spend its subsequent activation rallying.

To me that means 2 different activations but WEiRD sKeTCH is lurking around this thread so maybe he will say a final word on this.

Uh oh, totally missed that sentence. You're correct. That means Falling Back is a SUPER nasty effect. Better not fail that Wp Duel when she got the crows. Even though its easier said than done.

-Roope

[Wombats]

The model's activation then ends.

I see your point.

We have two options:

1. That rule was intended for a model who fails a Terrifying test while activating. It ends its activation immediately if it is active.

However, if it has not yet activated, it can then activate that round.

It loses this round rallying and is good to go next round.

2. It ends its activation for that round, meaning if it has not activated before it falls back it won't activate this round at all.

It loses this round to falling back and must rally next round.

The rules as written part of my brain says 1.

So does my intuition of game balance.

The part of me that wants Pandora to win says 2.

I'm very keen to see what an invisible Teddy might make of this.

[Csonti]

The rules completely cover the situation of out of activation fall back. And those sentences suggest my interpretation is the good one.

BUT I really want to hear that I'm wrong, or the intent is different and it will be FAQ-d soon. Since IMHO Pandy is too strong and I don't want to leave her at the self just because I don't find any joy in playing with her.

[Tonytone]

To your original point. It would be helpful to know what crews or masters your opponents play.

If as you say the skill level among you is pretty equal Pandora should be getting beat often enough.

There are several masters just off the top of my head who should be beating Pandora at least half the time and that is not counting Guild masters.

It is pretty easy to build a guild crew that with any of the 3 masters should be beating pandora most of the time if player skill where equal.