What the gremlins need.

[Justin]

So, after reading a few other threads complaining about how weak gremlins are (and enough experience of my own), I think I know what would help them out. Well, a lot of things could help them out, making them all df 300 would help, but you get my point.

They need to be able to use steampunk arachnids. Not the swarms...just the arachnids. Or, more accurately, some of their abilities.

If I had something that could latch on to give a model in base contact -2 df, and use use disruption field ( a 3" burst that gives anything in it a -flip on casting) my gremlins could deal with anything.

Hell, make it a completely separate gremlin model that costs more and needs to sacrifice itself to "latch on" and the disruption field could be a (2) spell that needed a 12 to cast, I don't care. If I had those two things in my gremlin toolbox, I would be so incredibly happy. You could call them "He's a' humpin' my leg!" and "blinding moonshine." Something gremliny.

I know, I know. Stick to my schemes and strategies. But sometimes the strategy is assassinate or slaughter, and my opponent picks bodyguard.

I'm also still not sure why Sommer has a zero soul stone cache, but I can deal with that...just let me lower some defense!

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to complain. Just consider this my gremlin wish list for subsequent Malifaux supplements.

[AntiZombie]

Gremlin shamen is what is needed here with spells : invisible ropes and magic moonshine grenades

[Justin]

What a gremlin wants

What a gremlin needs

Whatever makes me happy sets you free

[n0signal]

What a gremlin wants

What a gremlin needs

Whatever makes me happy sets you free

*cries*

[AoM]

Look at the thread about what makes Som'er Teeth competitive. The Gremlins are actually a "top tier" crew. They just require you to actually look at things as a whole before you build your crew, and then actually keep playing that way throughout the game.

Pigs and Piglets do the heavy lifting. Bayou Gremlins love Move + Focus. Skeeters and Teeth can make a stink cloud like no other.

The gremlins DO NOT need models from other factions, or even other Outcasts. Seriously. A Brawl with Zoraida and Teeth is just plain mean.

And I'm sure the gremlins are only going to get sillier and more deadly in the future. Nathan and Eric love them too much not to give them fun new toys.

[Justin]

Look at the thread about what makes Som'er Teeth competitive. The Gremlins are actually a "top tier" crew. They just require you to actually look at things as a whole before you build your crew, and then actually keep playing that way throughout the game.

Pigs and Piglets do the heavy lifting. Bayou Gremlins love Move + Focus. Skeeters and Teeth can make a stink cloud like no other.

The gremlins DO NOT need models from other factions, or even other Outcasts. Seriously. A Brawl with Zoraida and Teeth is just plain mean.

And I'm sure the gremlins are only going to get sillier and more deadly in the future. Nathan and Eric love them too much not to give them fun new toys.

Yeah, I've read the thread and I've played gremlins plenty. Most of that thread was written before gremlins had an errata, and mosquitoes could draw you infinite cards, and each time a gremlin died you drew four cards. Now, this is obscenely over powered, and I'm happy for the errata as I'd rather play a challenging crew than a stupidly powerful one, but it does make most of that thread and the "top tier" talk useless.

They do good against some masters, and on some strategies, but with a lot of them that they do well on they scurry around the board grabbing objectives. Effective enough, but killing things is fun too. Plus, there are plenty they don't do well on at all...

I understand pigs do the heavy hitting, but their combat is no better than that of a gremlin. The problem comes when you run into something with a high defense that you can't hit in the first place. Focus may give you 1 +flip to hit, but defensive stance gives the model they're shooting at 2 +flips to defense.

Pull my finger IS good. It's really good...but it's basically all they have for most situations. And mosquitoes need a 10 to pull it off, and they can hit each other with their clouds. Granted, careful placement can take care of this, but it is not always possible.

Add to that, sommer has the least soul stones in the game. (well, he's tied for it anyway) and when all you have is a turn of mosquito stank cloud before you get chopped to pieces, the opposing master can just use their larger cache to prevent all the damage from pull my finger 8/13 of the time and half the damage the other 5/13. (while you were probably burning soul stones that could have been otherwise spent on models to cast it in the first place. This is, of course, assuming you are even using it against another master, but those situations when gremlins really need the stank usually involves assassinate, slaughter, body guard, etc.)

I love gremlins. But, I'm sorry, if they get a match up that is bad for them (and I'm afraid there are far too many of these) and their opponent knows how to beat them, it's over. That last part is key, a lot of people may not know how to play against them, that's the only reason I could see them being described as "top tier."

And the abilities I mention aren't arcanist specific, the names from them are, but there are a number of models that lower defense and hinder spell casting. In future editions, I would expect gremlins to get something different than what they already have, and I'm simply saying that those are what I, personally, would like to see and what I think they need to deal with their bad match ups.

And I do like Zoraida and Sommer in a brawl. Her large cache compliments his lack of one, and a gremlin's luck + crystal ball is awesome. Ditch your hand! Now, draw from that deck...

However, I don't think that the additions I suggested would make that combination overpowered. Plus 90% of the games I see played are scraps. And, if the gremlins are getting new things, everyone else is too.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Justin

[paperbag4]

Teeth does have a zero cache. I've never had a problem leaving him around 5-6 stones and still flooding the board with models by turn two. The cheapness and ability to summon Gremlins makes up for his lack of cache. Do they have crappy stats? Yes. But they're better than any other 2 point model in the game. You drew assassinate, and your opponent took bodyguard? Deny them their strategy and you can still win (4-2) or tie based on your schemes.

Killing models is fun, but the inability to kill Lillith in melee doesn't make Gremlins under-powered. If she's spending every turn fighting your summoned gremlins, she's not accomplishing her objective. You should be able to make enough models each turn to make the ones that she kills inconsequential.

That being said. every time that I've played Teeth vs. Lillith I've had treasure hunt or reconnoiter for my strategies. Simple enough to throw up a wall of Gremlins in front of her and use the rest of the (very large) crew to achieve my objectives.

[Justin]

Teeth does have a zero cache. I've never had a problem leaving him around 5-6 stones and still flooding the board with models by turn two. The cheapness and ability to summon Gremlins makes up for his lack of cache. Do they have crappy stats? Yes. But they're better than any other 2 point model in the game. You drew assassinate, and your opponent took bodyguard? Deny them their strategy and you can still win (4-2) or tie based on your schemes.

Killing models is fun, but the inability to kill Lillith in melee doesn't make Gremlins under-powered. If she's spending every turn fighting your summoned gremlins, she's not accomplishing her objective. You should be able to make enough models each turn to make the ones that she kills inconsequential.

That being said. every time that I've played Teeth vs. Lillith I've had treasure hunt or reconnoiter for my strategies. Simple enough to throw up a wall of Gremlins in front of her and use the rest of the (very large) crew to achieve my objectives.

That depends on what Lilith's strategy is. If it's assassinate or slaughter (2/5 the strategies) it's fairly easy for her to accomplish. Assassinate is straight forward enough and, with slaughter, once sommer goes down, so does the whole gremlin production engine. Which, I suppose is a problem in any mission, gremlins have a really hard time accomplishing much if sommer goes down early enough. And Lilith is pretty good at claim jump too. She's and a mature nephilim stand in the ceneter. Good luck taking it. It's true that if every turn Lilith spends fighting my summoned gremlin's she's not accomplishing what she needs...but she only fights them when she wants to. Lilith can just step over the wall of gremlins. If they can't hit her, they can't lock her in combat (and I'm not even mentioning transposition, because this really isn't just about Lilith). Every time I play Lilith, she beelines straight for sommer.

And gremlins can't take out Lilith with combat...or shooting.

And, it's not just Lilith. Perdita is just as difficult. Or Mcmourning with his healing and high cache. And to an extent Pandora with the gremlin's low will power. Of the four, Mcmourning is probably the easiest and the one that presents me the least worries, and he is the one I have heard other gremlin players complaining about, oddly enough.

And reconnoiter and treasure hunt are the two best missions for gremlins. True, you could get a good match up. You could draw reconnoiter and Lilith (or whatever master gremlins have trouble killing) may draw treasure hunt and you scurry around the board with their objective, but I guess that just hasn't happened to me yet.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Justin

[Omenbringer]

And, it's not just Lilith. Perdita is just as difficult.

Never had a problem with Perdita. She softens pretty easy to a Gremlin gun line, Skeeter Stank, and can be one-shoted by So'mer's Boomer with "Dumb Luck." The key as has been said by Angel of Menoth is focused attacks and I would add concentrated fire.

I will agree to a lesser extent that Lilith, Seamus and Mcmourning are a bit more difficult of a matchup. In these matches positioning and combined arms style tactics become more of a key. The Gremlins are a lot more of a subtle and cerebral force than most realize, even the pigs aren't really meant to get "stuck in with the boys."

[Justin]

Never had a problem with Perdita. She softens pretty easy to a Gremlin gun line, Skeeter Stank, and can be one-shoted by So'mer's Boomer with "Dumb Luck." The key as has been said by Angel of Menoth is focused attacks and I would add concentrated fire.

I will agree to a lesser extent that Lilith, Seamus and Mcmourning are a bit more difficult of a matchup. In these matches positioning and combined arms style tactics become more of a key. The Gremlins are a lot more of a subtle and cerebral force than most realize, even the pigs aren't really meant to get "stuck in with the boys."

Was Perdita in defensive stance with soul stones to spare to add to defense when you killed her? If so, color me impressed, I'll have to try your tactics.

And, could you elaborate a little more on "combined arms style tactics?" I'm not entirely certain what that is, but I'm always in the mood to learn.

That said, I FINALLY killed Lilith last night. Although, this had more to do with my opponent's mistake than anything, I'll take it. Heh. I'll be writing a battle report soon.

[Omenbringer]

Combined Arms Tactics for Gremlins:

1) So'mer and skeeters provide direct damage to the closest or hardest to hit targets.

2) Massed focused Gremlins firing from cover picking off mid distance targets.

3) Pig squadrons attacking deep targets utilizing flying Pigcharges and stampedes.

4) Whisperers and Skeeters support the Pig Squadrons by insuring favorable placements utilizing "Pork Whisper'n or Sweet Nothin's","Never Happen..." and "Sooey!" aka the Pig Boomerang.

5) Som'er supports the crew with reinforcements, healing and the "Boomer".

The entire crew plays Cat and Mouse moving out of and into cover or engaging along chokepoints. Following the suggestion for terrain setup on Page 91 (2-4 pieces of terrain per square foot is between 18-36 on the table) aids a lot. In games where the strategies are against me I use schemes to play for the Draw.

Perdita in defensive stance doesn't bother me as much as Nino or Papa Loco at any time, since thats one less attack or move she is making. To get past her cache of soulstones put your crew in defensive stance behind cover, she'll either have to focus fire or use those soulstones to hit you. Or hit her with the boomeranged pig squadrons and concentrated Gremlin Fire, she'll burn them quick preventing or healing damage.

[Justin]

Combined Arms Tactics for Gremlins:

1) So'mer and skeeters provide direct damage to the closest or hardest to hit targets.

2) Massed focused Gremlins firing from cover picking off mid distance targets.

3) Pig squadrons attacking deep targets utilizing flying Pigcharges and stampedes.

4) Whisperers and Skeeters support the Pig Squadrons by insuring favorable placements utilizing "Pork Whisper'n or Sweet Nothin's","Never Happen..." and "Sooey!" aka the Pig Boomerang.

5) Som'er supports the crew with reinforcements, healing and the "Boomer".

The entire crew plays Cat and Mouse moving out of and into cover or engaging along chokepoints. Following the suggestion for terrain setup on Page 91 (2-4 pieces of terrain per square foot is between 18-36 on the table) aids a lot. In games where the strategies are against me I use schemes to play for the Draw.

These are all very good tactics and they're what you should be shooting for with the average game, but they don't help much with the harder match ups...which is precisely why they are harder match ups.

Perdita in defensive stance doesn't bother me as much as Nino or Papa Loco at any time, since thats one less attack or move she is making. To get past her cache of soulstones put your crew in defensive stance behind cover, she'll either have to focus fire or use those soulstones to hit you. Or hit her with the boomeranged pig squadrons and concentrated Gremlin Fire, she'll burn them quick preventing or healing damage.

If she is in defensive stance, she won't burn many soul stones healing or on defense. Perdita is df 8. The highest attack in the gremlin list (aside from sommer) is 4. The highest possible draw (jokers excluded) for gremlins is 17. (13 + 4) This means that if Perdita draws a 10, gremlins can not possibly hit her without a joker. (10 + 8 = 18) In defensive stance, she draws three cards. This gives her an, approximately, 68% chance of drawing a 10 or higher. So, 68% of the time (jokers excluded) it is not even POSSIBLE for gremlins or pigs to hit her. And, the other 32% of the time...they still will probably miss. Not to mention cheating. On the off chance they do hit, yeah, she may have to use a soul stone.

So, Perdita walks at you twice and then assumes defensive stance. She'll get to a point where your gremlins won't be in cover eventually. Using soul stones to kill gremlins is a waste. Against a gremlin crew Lilith and Perdita are best served saving them for nothing but damage prevention and killing sommer.

And, yeah, I'll grant you, Lilith is ten times better at this than Perdita...which really doesn't lift my spirits.

This brings us to Pull My Finger, gremlin's only real defense against this tactic. But I've found that with most games, if my opponent can survive one turn of optimum stank (4 skeeters + sommer) the next turn sommer usually goes down, or my crew is otherwise crippled beyond repair. I have no numbers to back this up, it's just my experience. The mosquitoes need a 10 to pull off the stank which often results in a drained hand or soul stone pool for me. And when they're done, if my target lived, I'm usually in a bad position.

Also keep in mind, these masters aren't alone. A smart opponent will try to neutralize the only threat on the board (the mosquitoes) with his other models while saving all soul stones for either healing or killing sommer. And killing sommer usually isn't quite as hard as it sounds, since he is rather immobile while using get yer bro and healing, and he has a habit of wounding himself.

Earlier tonight Marcus survived 4 mosquitoes and sommer farting on him (he burned all his soul stones to do it except one that had been burned earlier, but he did it with the damage prevention and ended with only three wounds on him. Keep in mind one pull my finger is completely negated 8/13 of the time and reduced by half the rest of the time) and then he turned and smacked Sommer to death. Now, Marcus is not one of my bad match ups and it was actually a very good game, but it is irritating watching my opponents continually walking their masters through a cloud of mosquitoes, surviving with the damage prevention, and then smacking sommer. At least I'm relatively ok with Marcus being able to do that (as much as I think damage prevention should be once per turn). I can take him out with pigs and dumb luck. Lilith and Perdita...not so much.

Now, Sommer does have a cb of 6 and better damage than most gremlins, but I have repeatedly found that if he is close enough to use it, he is too close for comfort. (in that game with Marcus I had the red joker in my hand so I stepped forward and shot at Marcus, cheating the joker and burning a soul stone to be sure to be able to hit with enough of a difference to be able to cheat the damage to severe and one shot Marcus with dumb luck, doing 10 damage to him. Marcus burned a soul stone to prevent the damage, the only one he didn't spend on the stank cloud, and flipped the red joker. Annoying as hell, but not the origin of my problems with damage prevention. I'm just explaining how sommer ended up in the open in the first place.)

Gremlins luck also helps. It helps a lot. One of my favorite tactics is to use my first action of the game to sacrifice a gremlin to a mosquito using the larvae ability, in part to net me more cards to help pull off git yer bro when sommer activates, but also so the mosquitoes will be wounded (as they don't start the game that way) so sommer can heal them. With a fully healed mosquito, I can make use of gremlin's luck without harming sommer, and with a much better range. Even so, with Perdita or Lilith getting a number so high I can't hit it 68% of the time regardless of their fate hand, this becomes less of a point.

Now, of course, killing the opposing master isn't everything. But with things like assassinate and body guard, it can become pretty damn important. I'm not asking for much here, a more expensive gremlin that has none of the abilities of other gremlins except maybe reckless fast and has to make base contact and then take a (1) action to sacrfice itself and lower the target's df by 2...for one turn. I'm a humble man, I have humble wants!

Edited December 24, 2009 by Justin

[Omenbringer]

So, Perdita walks at you twice and then assumes defensive stance. She'll get to a point where your gremlins won't be in cover eventually. Using soul stones to kill gremlins is a waste. Against a gremlin crew Lilith and Perdita are best served saving them for nothing but damage prevention and killing sommer.

Now, of course, killing the opposing master isn't everything. But with things like assassinate and body guard, it can become pretty damn important. I'm not asking for much here, a more expensive gremlin that has none of the abilities of other gremlins except maybe reckless fast and has to make base contact and then take a (1) action to sacrfice itself and lower the target's df by 2...for one turn. I'm a humble man, I have humble wants!

A defensive Perdita isn't really that big a threat for me, she only does damage when she is shooting. If she is doing the move and defend thing then I'll focus on Nino and Papa Loco. Perhaps it's just differing experiences from different locations but she really isn't that much of a threat for me.

I agree though that Lilith is a much more difficult matchup for Gremlin crews. Like I said against her I will usually play for the draw against her, only difference is I run Pig heavy.

As for future wants, a Gremlin with "Latch on" or a mob rule similar to the Canine Remains Hunting Dogs ability though cumulative would be rather nice (not sure sacing a gremlin for 1 turn of -2 Df would really be worth it). My own wants are a bigger tougher gremlin meant for melee (think Lennie from "Of Mice and Men" mounted on a 40mm base and Ht 2), a Gremlin lynch Mob (think the lynch mob from "Hang'em High" mounted on a 50mm base, Ht 1, with variable Wp/ Dg similar to the Hoarcat Pride), and a Gremlin Gunslinger (think Mordecai from "High Plains Drifter").

[Justin]

She gets there eventually while the other models hang back or pick off mosquitoes. At least, that's my experience. It's worst with assassinate, when moving away is just as good. But yeah, I'd much rather face her than Lilith.

Ack, yeah, I hate playing for a draw. It's just depressing when you pull out your models thinking, "well, if I play really well...I might tie." But I play against Lilith a lot, so I suppose this is a bigger deal to me than most people. But there have to be other sets of friends out there who picked up the game and a couple of crews that just didn't happen to be particularly balanced against each other and were left with the feeling, "this just doesn't feel right..."

All of those are very good ideas. I was just saying they need...something. Anything. I aimed low, in the hopes I would get it. Heh. But I would be happy with what I asked for. It would give me a chance, and that's all I need.

[acid_gaming]

I think what the Gremlins need are more gremlin models. I'd like to have a few more poses available. Having said that I do release there are far more models that are in front of the queue.

I haven't played a game with them yet so can't comment in game terms.

[Justin]

I think what the Gremlins need are more gremlin models. I'd like to have a few more poses available. Having said that I do release there are far more models that are in front of the queue.

I haven't played a game with them yet so can't comment in game terms.

There are some cool gremlin conversions in the showcase portion of the forum.

Check out Underbite and DireHoarcat_snuggler's threads. I also did a conversion with the fiddle that I thought was neat, but it's not half as good as theirs.

[Omenbringer]

OT @ acid_gaming

Here is the link to Dire Hoarcat Snugglers converted Gremlins: DHS Gremlin Conversions First page has the mods.

And Underbheit's:

Under's Gremlins Pictures throughout, however my favorite is his flying warpig.

And of course my own:

Omenbringer' Gremlins Only a few of mine, however, more to come soon.

Peterdita's Rasta Gremlings dont have much in the way of Conversions however are worth a look:

Peterdita's Outcasts Page 2 and 3 have his Gremlins.

@Lalochezia

Thought of two more models I would like to see for the Gremlins:

1) Pregnant Sow, with an ability that gives higher damage, call it "Momma's milk" and the ability to summon more piglets, not sure of a name for this.

2) Gremlin Pig Farmer, with the ability to grow piglets into Warpigs, sorta like the Nephilim (call it "Growth Hormones)

[Justin]

OT @ acid_gaming

Here is the link to Dire Hoarcat Snugglers converted Gremlins: DHS Gremlin Conversions First page has the mods.

And Underbheit's:

Under's Gremlins Pictures throughout, however my favorite is his flying warpig.

And of course my own:

Omenbringer' Gremlins Only a few of mine, however, more to come soon.

Peterdita's Rasta Gremlings dont have much in the way of Conversions however are worth a look:

Peterdita's Outcasts Page 2 and 3 have his Gremlins.

@Lalochezia

Thought of two more models I would like to see for the Gremlins:

1) Pregnant Sow, with an ability that gives higher damage, call it "Momma's milk" and the ability to summon more piglets, not sure of a name for this.

2) Gremlin Pig Farmer, with the ability to grow piglets into Warpigs, sorta like the Nephilim (call it "Growth Hormones)

1) I would rather see higher cb than higher damage, but good idea.

2) Ha! That's cool.

I also recently converted a warpig to be carrying the gremlin with the spy glass on his back. It was pretty easy (hence why I was able to do it). I just flattened his back a bit with my clippers/file and then stuck a wad of greenstuff on it. I clipped the base slot off the spyglass gremlin and stuffed him in the greenstuff, then sculpted it to look like hair (the only thing I can sculpt). Turned out nice.

I'm going to try and model the guy who was supposed to be on his back to look like he's pulling a mushroom out of the muck, but we'll see how that goes.