Jus't can't stop - Nicodem

[Wulfen]

My son's birthday hit, and he got $35 to spend. He looked through the book, watched some games and told me he wanted Nicodem, he really digs the 'Evil Undead' stuff.

I just purchased the boxset and a Flesh Construct, what else should I be looking at to flesh (ah-ha) him out? Mindless zombies of course, but I don't really like to proxy and would prefer to wait until they're out. Which is hopefully soon.

And while I'm at it, some tips on using him? He doesn't start out with any counters like McM can, so how to bring about the zombie horde?

[EricJ]

Mindless zombies are in the works, and shouldn't be TOO long, same with Canine remains, which are probably another good match with Nicodem. I think the necropunks work well with him also.

[AoM]

Necropunks!!!!

A good way to get your body count piling up is to keep fog up to protect your zombies, and move them to where they are close enough for Self Mutilation. Ping a model a few times, and use Decay to heal your zombies. Lather, rinse, repeat.

With Fog up, you're looking at people having to close the distance for melee, or use 2 actions to Focus if they want to have the option of cheating on the attack duel. As I know from experience, not being able to cheat there means you're looking at a whole lot of missed shots.

[Isoulle]

I'm always a fan of punk zombies. Excellent melee troops and really good for the attrition style warfare Nicodem does. Crooked men are also a good option because they're really hard to drop for their SS cost and with reanimator you can weigh your enemy down in hard to kill models.

[nilus]

And while I'm at it, some tips on using him? He doesn't start out with any counters like McM can, so how to bring about the zombie horde?

Two ways

1) His buddy Mortimer has a spell that can summon corpse counters. General for the first turn or two I do that. You want to have one or two Mindless Zombies roaming around Nicodem to suck up blows.

2) Killing dudes. Preferable your enemies, but your friends turn into corpse counters when they die too.

Nicodem is like an Artillery piece. Surround him with buddies to take hits for him, and then use Vultures to cast spells at the enemy from a good distance away. Use fog to make it hard for them to hit you back and summon backup(like Flesh Constructs) when the enemy starts getting close.

[Wulfen]

Thanks for all the tips guys, appreciate it! I should have him in a couple days, curious to see how he plays compares to my Guild.

[snakeking]

Are you bringing him up to game on Wednesday? If he wants to run a Nicodem box i have one that he can give a spin.

[goblyn13]

Two ways

1) His buddy Mortimer has a spell that can summon corpse counters. General for the first turn or two I do that. You want to have one or two Mindless Zombies roaming around Nicodem to suck up blows.

2) Killing dudes. Preferable your enemies, but your friends turn into corpse counters when they die too.

Nicodem is like an Artillery piece. Surround him with buddies to take hits for him, and then use Vultures to cast spells at the enemy from a good distance away. Use fog to make it hard for them to hit you back and summon backup(like Flesh Constructs) when the enemy starts getting close.

You also forget Nilus, any model with the Graverobber trait can give up all its actions to produce a Corpse counter as outlined on page 45. and a similar thing can be done for Scavengers.

[Wulfen]

Are you bringing him up to game on Wednesday? If he wants to run a Nicodem box i have one that he can give a spin.

Nope, most likely not, by the time I get off of work there's no time to grab him..but thanks for the offer!

[nilus]

You also forget Nilus, any model with the Graverobber trait can give up all its actions to produce a Corpse counter as outlined on page 45. and a similar thing can be done for Scavengers.

Yep, I forgot about that default ability. Although your better off using Morty since it only costs 1 AP to do his spell.

Personally I always prefer option 2 anyways, killing minis is always more fun.

[Wulfen]

Yep, I forgot about that default ability. Although your better off using Morty since it only costs 1 AP to do his spell.

Personally I always prefer option 2 anyways, killing minis is always more fun.

It costs 1 AP, yes, but what if you don't get a Crow on the flip?

[Chase]

You'd fail the cast. But Morty's (all) Search (because he is a graverobber) counter can't be used by Nicodem. The only reason to (all) Search is to be able to cast Morty's (all) I'll make my own friends.

[Kealios]

So I was thinking of trying Nic myself. I'm not an undead kind of guy, typically, but this is just too good to ignore.

Orius' post of this combo first drew my attention to it, so I do not claim it in any way, but here is the list I plan on running at 30SS:

Nicodem

1x Bete Noire (9)

4x Canine Remains (8)

Mortimer (7) or Sebastian (6)

Nurse (5)

----------

Total: 29 w/ Mort or 28 w/Seb

If Seb was taken, I'd likely take a 5th Canine. Sebastian has Here, Boy to activate 2 Canines at once, Graverobber (like Mort has), For You, Master (which Mort doesnt have), and can heal. Not too shabby.

Turn 1:

Nic, Mort/Seb and the 4 Canines all dig around a bit, producing 6 Corpse Tokens.

Turn 2:

Seb** and the Canines* all funnel their Corpse tokens over to Nic, who casts Reanimator twice, if he has the Crows for it. Now you have 2 Flesh Constructs and a Crew of 44 SS value. If you only get one Reanimate off, shucks, youre only worth 37SS and have plenty of Corpse tokens for subsequent turns. Advance the troops up just a splash, positioning the Nurse behind some Canines for some Bedside Manners or Life Support support

*Alternate: Use your Canines for a 2nd turn of Searching, and turn 3 funnel the 8/10 tokens over at once before advancing... /shudder

**Also, Seb can keep his token for a Turn 2 Canine Remains

Turns 3 and 4:

Use Bolster Undead and start going hog wild on melee troops who have advanced on you. If you have to go to them, you might be in trouble, but thats situational.

By this time, there should be some deaths going on. If you have a situation where multiple corpse counters are on the board at once, use Arise to get 4-6 Zombies at once. If not, continue with Bolster Undead.

You can combo a sacrificed Mindless Zombie to pull out Bete Noire if needed, in addition to negating a Strike on Nic. Once she is out, she'll be out for some time.

If you have Mort, summon a Crooked Man or some Punk Zombies (he will have had to Seach one round, and gotten lucky on Turn 2 with Exhume, or he could have Searched again.) Once melee is engaged and he is out of Corpse tokens, use Fresh Meat to get your horde advancing at a nice clip.

If you have Sebastian, have him hang near the Nurse to heal her or other models up. Since Surgeon is an Action and not spell, its one of the more reliable heals in the game, and can easily be done twice per turn.

You can have an army valued at over 50 SS in 2 turns if you have the cards in your hand to pull it off, or if you get fortunate on your flips. This isnt even counting the Bolstered Mindless Zombies that will certainly come out. Heals (from Nic's Decay, Nurse's Surgery, and Sebastian's Surgeon) will keep this crew rolling at maximum efficiency. The Crew will continue to expand as you draw more high Crows in your hand - look at all these options to pull from (ripped from another thread):

Punk Zombies

Rotten Belles

Canine Remains

Crooked Men

Mindless Zombie(although I don't know why you would)

Flesh Construct

Necropunks

Steampunk Abominations

Heck, if even one Mindless Zombie is near Nic, he can cast Reanimator and get himself a quick 5-cost Punk Zombie (Cb 9, Df 7!) instantly. Ouch!

I have a hard time believing this list won't be cuddled, but I think it has some SUBSTANTIAL potential. It is not unbeatable, and certainly has its flaws as a slow moving horde, but once it gets rolling, "I'm the Juggernaut, Bitch!"

Ooofah.

Kealios

Edited September 8, 2009 by Kealios
Some tactical and grammatical edits

[Invader Larb]

Wow. That is an impressive setup Kealios. Thanks for putting it out there. Once I get a few games under my belt I'll have to take this list for s spin.

[Chase]

Ran it the other day. I liked it but it was against a Ramos list with Joss and what not. So to keep stuff tied up I made Punk Zombies on double casts instead of Flesh Construct. And just kept making counters to turn into Mindless zombies and Punk zombies. Worked pretty well and won 4vp - 2vp

[royal]

S

Nicodem

1x Bete Noire (9)

4x Canine Remains (8)

Mortimer (7) or Sebastian (6)

Nurse (5)

----------

Total: 29 w/ Mort or 28 w/Seb

have been tweaking this list for a few games now. My next list I plan on dropping the mort/seb(yes they are good) and grabbing another dog and a crooked man. although they are useful the effects of the crooked mans 1 cost spell shafted is nice. you can usually get one off a turn and some times get lucky and get a second on off.

my 2cents

[Kealios]

My thoughts on that are that you get diminishing returns on too many dogs. 4 dogs gives you 2 Flesh Golems turn 2, and Seb can get his own boys out soon enough too. I was thinking that Mort would maybe bring in his Crooked Men to add to the list, which is why they werent added to the original list.

Interesting thoughts, indeed.

[Kealios]

Thank God. This was cuddled, HARD. I am actually quite relieved

Hope you had fun while it lasted!

[royal]

Thank God. This was cuddled, HARD. I am actually quite relieved

Hope you had fun while it lasted!

I am a little shocked they went to such an extreme on the Cuddling. I can see and would wholely support the dogs getting the graverobber key work removed as that made them to nice to pass up for 2 points. But to remove the search from them all together is a little hurtful

[Wulfen]

I'm really not sure how truly viable Nicodem is after the (all) Search change, especially when compared to a Master like McMourning, who can start the game with Body Parts. Sure, Mort can find stuff, but that's only on a lucky flip; you can't exactly plan on that.

Is there really ever going to be a point where there are so many corpse counters on the table that he can make Mindless Zombies worth the effort? I don't see it.

[Kealios]

@Royal: The dogs still need Gravedigger to allow them to pick them for the For You, Master ability. So they couldnt have removed the Key word totally.

@Wulfen: In my battles against Seamus, both playing Lilith and Marcus, we have had, by turn 4, on average 3 to 4 corpse counters lying around. One game we had 6, and Seamus was raising Belles when his cards allowed.

Truly, 2 Mindless Zombies are worth it...that will negate 2 full hits, or be corpse counters that cannot be picked up by the opponent.

[Sobek]

I'm really not sure how truly viable Nicodem is after the (all) Search change, especially when compared to a Master like McMourning, who can start the game with Body Parts. Sure, Mort can find stuff, but that's only on a lucky flip; you can't exactly plan on that.

Is there really ever going to be a point where there are so many corpse counters on the table that he can make Mindless Zombies worth the effort? I don't see it.

You've voiced my concerns rather well. I've been looking at starting up a Nico warband, but have to wonder how viable he is after this cuddle. With many of his special abilities dealing with mindless zombies, is he still as viable as the over masters now that those same mindless zombies are going to be much more difficult to actually get summoned?

I can't help but wonder if there was a better way to do it. I'm also slightly concerned by all the fairly significant errata that we're seeing. It's almost getting to the point where we need to start checking the errata for rules questions BEFORE we open the book. How long before we get a revised version of the rulebook?

[Magno]

Wow. You mean I've been playing Nicoderm this whole time "cuddled" already?

Yet, I've still had a few games where I've popped out 8 zombies at a 25ss game by round 4.

The zombies are worth it, especially when you can cast "Bolster Undead" the next round.

2 zombies is nice to have, 2 corpse counters to make another zombie punk is nice especially at 25ss. At larger games, an extra zombie punk won't feel as awesome, but then there will be more corpse counters lying around the table.

The thought of a horde of zombies is intriguing, but don't set yourself up for dissapointment when you only see 2-4 at a time. YOu'll learn later on that they are great to have around;

absorb damage for Nico

block LoS, charging lanes

plus you can sacrifice the zombie whenever you want to Reanimate.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Magno

[Wulfen]

I'm more than slightly concerned that they only changed this now, after release. That immediately tells me that it wasn't thoroughly tested.

Those of you say this is fine, have you played against Guild or other crews with abilities that eliminate corpse counters? Against crews like this, now you don't even have a chance to get going. Nico's entire theme just got hit because of fast, cheap dogs?

I just don't see how Cuddling an entire faction, especially their unique strength, that makes them what they are, helps the game.

As you can tell, I'm not all that excited about this; it's not even the fact that something was overpowered. To me, these things, things that are so broken that they demand an extreme change like this, should have been found, and fixed, well before now.

I don't even play Resurrectionists, but I don't like where this is going.

[Kealios]

/cheer Magno! The people whining about this are just bummed that their super-broken list isnt continuing to be broken! Do you really think summoning 14 SS worth of models on TURN 2 was fair?

What Magno said - I havent played against/with Nic yet, but I HAVE had PLENTY of corpse counters lying about. Had Nic been on the table, that would have been 6-8 easily in 25SS games by turn 4 or 5.

Corpse counters are a natural result of the game flow. They WILL come, whether by your forces being wiped out or your opponent. You still have access to EXACTLY THE SAME THINGS as McM and Seamus, you can dish out a ton of damage with your forces, you actually have access to MORE undead than the other 2 Res Masters do, and you can bolster your large SS-cost undead better than anyone.

You also have one, exactly ONE spell/ability/trigger/action that requires a Corpse Counter. Reanimator is it! Heck, you can cast Arise even if you have no counters - you just wont raise anything.

McM has 2 Actions/Spells that require Body Parts/Corpse Counters (sure he can generate them, but he uses them for different things than Nic does). Seamus only needs the one as well - Arise, My Sweet, but he'll be using casualties on the field for these.

Nic didnt get cuddled, he got fixed. Bring a hard hitter to the table, focus fire on one or two models a turn, generate your own Corpse counters, use Mort's Exhume or use Seb's ability to generate Body Parts to summon a Canine and then kill it...there ARE still ways...