Miniature Taboo?

[supervike]

The topic came up in another thread about casting molds, and there are a few things I was just wondering about...

This is purely speculative...

Lets say someone DID NOT have the rights, but had the molds of a line of minis? First of all, how/why is it illegal for them to cast them? If they are not commercially available, who would care? Does a defunct company still own some sort of rights?

I guess it is one thing to say that someone shouldn't take an existing (meaning commercially available) line of minis, create a mold, and then try to profit from reselling them. I fully agree that is unethical to say the least, and illegal to say the most.

BUT, what if a miniature is 20 years old. The molds are all destroyed and that company doesn't even exist anymore. People still would like the mini, but it is scarce and hard to find....is it still equally illegal/unethical to produce a mold of the mini?

I'm not condoning any of these activities, but it does seem to be a serious taboo that mini-collectors avoid. Why is that? I have heard of 're-casters' on E-Bay, but mini-collectors talk of them like they are a terrible scourge. I don't know...what do you people think?

[Duende]

I think the morality issue comes into play for a lot of people because the "recaster" is profiting off of an item that he had no part in originally creating. It may be something that people would still like, but it's known because some company took time to sculpt it, cast it, market it, mass produce it, and make it known in the first place. A recaster is just riding on the figure's already established popularity due to the work of other people, and profiting off of it. So many could see it as "Look, here's a figure lots of people want, the company's defunct, but I could make some and sell them for my own profit."

I think more people see it as being greedy, rather than someone trying to make a popular mini more available to eveyone.

I don't know the legal standpoint on this however. I don't know about licencing rights of company's that no longer exist. Sorry!

:goodbad:

[EricJ]

ok, I was worried at first from the title this was a masterbation thread! :peace:

However I believe there is someone who still does own the rights for a period of years even if the company who produced it is no longer actively selling the product, and if that person happened to notice you pulling a profit, they would have a pretty clear cut case to take those profits (plus probably a little more) away from you. However, I would expect the chance of this happening is far less than other situations, however still possible.

I don't really know the details, so I'm gonna stay vague on the subject

[marineboy]

Yeah, how long is the period when soneone has IP rights?

I found some old tin soldier molds in stone at a flea market years ago. Cast a few, hope no laws were broken. Still, I was a minor at the time, so I'm probably covered. :vb_tongue

Who's the lawyer here?

[Duende]

Who's the lawyer here?

I know vincegamer's a lawyer, but I don't know what his area is. But he may still have a better idea than the rest of us.

:idea:

[LeadAsbestos]

I bought plenty of old Citadel stuff from various recasters, and will continue to do so. If Citadel made the models I want, I'd buy legit, but they are bastards about this, so...

Like they re-released the old Jes Goodwin Ogres recently after years of claiming the molds were destroyed. Yet another reason to hate GW! Such pretty models and such pricks at the helm...

[supervike]

Yeah, I think more of my point is trying to see it through the eyes of the consumer/collector. I have no interest (or knowledge of how to) in recasting anything. There really is no specific case, as I am just purely being speculative. It seems a good discussion.

I've never done it (bought a recast) but why should it be wrong? Honestly, I think I would worry more about 'cast quality' than some sort of moral high ground. How is that original company or artist being hurt? They've no concern if the product is out there, and are no longer selling any they have left. The only one making a profit is the owner of now-hard-to-find item, and that is strictly on second-hand market (via Ebay, etc). The original company and artist don't see a dime of profit from someone selling one of their miniatures for 5 or 10 times the original cost.

Again, though, let me reiterate, that if an item is COMMERCIALLY available, I whole heartedly believe that recasting is the same as Software/DVD piracy, and is (and rightly so) illegal.

[vincegamer]

Okay, lots of questions here so I will try to scratch the surface of a few....

Lets say someone DID NOT have the rights, but had the molds of a line of minis? First of all, how/why is it illegal for them to cast them? If they are not commercially available, who would care? Does a defunct company still own some sort of rights?

If you have the molds (the hollow things you pour the media into) you don't necessarily have the right to use them.

The law uses the term "author" to mean anyone who creates something - in this case a sculpture.

So, when an author creates something, he has the exclusive right to make copies of it. That right lasts 70 years past his death (in the US and Europe) so that his family can reap the rewards after he's gone. (if the object was made as part of someone's employment as a "work for hire" the right to make copies belongs to the employer and lasts 95 years from creation).

So, yes, it is illegal to cast without permission to make copies, which can be granted explicitly or implied but depends on the details of how you got the molds.

Who cares? I don't know. Does a defunct company own rights? no, a defunct company no more owns anything than a deceased person owns something. However, someone had to inherit the property: could be the former shareholders, could have been sold, could have reverted to the author. I'm among a group of fans of a game called Magic Realm designed by Richard Hamblin in 1976 for Avalon Hill. Mr. Hamblin has told us he doesn't know whether or not he has the copyright. Hasbro has told us they don't know whether or not they have the copyright. They have said if we put out a new edition of the game they have no intention of stopping us - it's not worth the cost.

BUT, what if a miniature is 20 years old. The molds are all destroyed and that company doesn't even exist anymore. People still would like the mini, but it is scarce and hard to find....is it still equally illegal/unethical to produce a mold of the mini?

illegal? yes. unethical? I doubt it. Depends on if the original sculptor would care I suppose. Maybe Mr. Godlike P. Sculptor wouldn't like people seeing what crap he did for rent money 20 years ago before he was any good. Perhaps it might hurt his reputation.

Assuming he doesn't care, then you are not causing harm to anyone and are benefiting others so in my personal system of ethical balancing you come out on the right side.

The drawback is if you remove the social stigma from making copies, people will be more likely to make copies of things people DO care about.

SV: you've never bought a recast? Perhaps you would be better saying you've never "knowingly" bought a recast. The other problem of course is people selling something as an original that is actually a recast. This is not so much an issue in our little hobby, but other collectible things are more susceptible to this kind of hooliganism.

Well, that's the tip of the iceberg of Copyright law in the USA. Safe to say if a product was produced by a company as a work for hire prior to 1910 you can make all the copies you want.

[Nathan Caroland]

I have to say I'm dead set against it for various reasons. For instance, some of the old Citadel stuff isn't in circulation anymore, but you can bet that some of those go for a high amount of money because they are 'rare'. Hell, I just watched a miniature, a poor one for that matter, of the naked slave of some Eldar or Dark Elf go for 220 GBP's!!!

Now, lets say John P. Scum has made a recast of that, he is basically pouring his own money, and has absolutely no right to it whatsoever.

For instance, I used to write a lot of gaming material and publish it on my website. I found it ALL over the place for several years there and I have to admit, even when I didn't have the website up anymore, it pissed me off, a LOT, to see that someone has taken my work and put it on their website to fill it out. Sometimes I got credit, most times I didn't. I spent a solid seven months tracking stuff down one year and having it removed, bit by bit, off the internet. If I want it there, I'll put it there.

Feel the same about miniatures. You make it, bought it, commissioned it or own the copyrights to it? Sell the hell out of them. You didn't do diddly other than make a recast, then personally I hope you get what's coming to you in a bad way.

[supervike]

This is the type of discussion I absolutely love. No politics or nationalism, no "what color are your underwear" threads...Just pure mini discussion. (don't get me wrong, those other threads have a place too) Thank you for such great answers.

vince...you are right...I have never KNOWINGLY bought a recast. Its not something an E-bayer would probably advertise. Thank you for the legal point of view, it is actually very interesting, and not at all snoozeworthy.

nathan....great point of view. Your opinion makes me take pause and consider my previous position, I appreciate that.

I wonder if Godlike P. Sculptor and John P. Scum shared an apartment once....

[LeadAsbestos]

So I decide that instead of Gnoblars for my GW Ogres, I want pygmies. GW no longer makes pygmies for various reasons, so I check eBay. Johnny Fatass in his mom's basement will sell me his original Citadel pygmies for $150 USD, the current rate you can expect for this 10 mini set. (It is true!) Sleazy P. Recaster will sell me a set of his recasts at $12 for the same set of 10.

Fatass paid $X to GW/Citadel back in the day, Recaster did the same. GW/Citadel and Mr. Old Sculptor get nothing from this eBay sale.

Who do I buy from?

[Nathan Caroland]

That's something you have to deal with on your own. Personally, I wouldn't buy from the recaster, even if it is a good deal, as I flat out feel that it is wrong. Yes GW is the 'evil empire' but this buisness is about money, not making people all gooey-happy. We all do it in the end for personal gain, whether it is monetary or something else, but I can certainly say that GW put their time, money and effort into it for money. Someone capitalizing on that is in the wrong. My opinion, but I'm entitled to it.

That's my karma though, not yours, so mileage may vary.

[Jubilee]

I'm against anything that weakens intellectual property rights, even if it's the recasting of a miniature 20 years old that isn't on the market anymore. Maybe it just got drilled into my brain in years of english literature classes, but it's just not right to reproduce other people's work without permission.

It's a slippery slope. Once you start making excuses for one "type" of stealing, it gets easier and easier to justify other situations..

/ali

ps. I think an exception might be if you cast it for your personal use. As in, say you want an army of pygmies and you have 1 or 2 already. I think you should be able to make copies for your own use, but shame on you if you ever try to sell them!

[supervike]

Who do I buy from?

Hmm...WWLAD? What Would Lead Asbestos Do?

I've flip-flopped more on this issue than a gymnast in zero gees...I guess I can too easily see both sides of the debate. As a collector, and someone who was spent serious buckage on hard to find minis, I will have to say buy the 12 dollar ones, donate some money to a charity, and go to confession for absolution.... :thumb:

[Tagron]

Buy the recasts. Is it moraly wrong? I dont think so, you arent hurting yourself, nor GW, nor the old sculpter. And if your concerned about GW losing cash, or something use the the money you saved to buy their paints or something. Im guessing the pygmie production isnt what you would call a money making scheme either, its probably something the dude cast for himself and never used. So i wouldnt worry about perpetuating his illegal dealings. And its the principle of the thing is still bothering you let me pose this question:

Would buying a sculpted green on ebay of a space marine be moraly right? I havent used gw parts that have been illegaly casted, in fact i havent done anything illigal at all, as long as i call it a "Space-age Marine" or "future warrior" But im still stealing their idea, im stealing the work of many a concept artist, isnt that wrong?? So if thats wrong what if its a sculpted green of a movie character? like say for instance Sauron from LOTR, im stealing the idea of the armor. Just because its not so apparent, and just because i used talent in reproducing those pieces doesnt make it my idea, its still theft. Even if its not illegal, and i can do it without fear of persicution, does the law set the table for right and wrong? I think if you think about it in these terms you'll see that by doing that, you have to do that for any sort of idea/work theft, and if you did that you'll end up living in a bubble. Its like the people who get paranoid about germs, if you go through some massive ordeal to sterilize one area of your house that for some reason caught your attention, the next thing you know youll become aware of the next spot thats not clean, and the next, and the next, untill you cant do anything, go anywhere or live your life. And all for the fear of germs, a fact of every day life.

You need to face it, you live in a dirty world, you cant be worrying, or judging the morality of other peoples actions. All you can do is keep your own practices clean, and lead a moral life according to your beliefes.

[Mosch]

Hell, I just watched a miniature, a poor one for that matter, of the naked slave of some Eldar or Dark Elf go for 220 GBP's!!!

Do you have a picture? I have three naked slave miniatures by games workshop and I am now wondering if I am sitting on a goldmine without my knowledge Come to think of it, where did I put the third one....

[LeadAsbestos]

220 GBPs will buy you a real naked slave girl, at least for a while! :thumb:

[vincegamer]

say for instance Sauron from LOTR, im stealing the idea of the armor. Just because its not so apparent, and just because i used talent in reproducing those pieces doesnt make it my idea, its still theft.

Just to sharpen focus a bit from a legal perspective: Copyright does not protect ideas. Copyright is protection of the expression of an idea. We often say someone "stole my idea" when what we really mean is they capitalized on it before we did.

If you make a Sauron mini that looks like Sauron in the movies, you have copied someone else's expression of Sauron, which is itself a copy of Mr. Tolkein's expression of Sauron, but nevertheless an original work. You have just done it without permission.

Now Sauron is an archetype, so you could create a mini of a powerful dark demigod that is inspired by Tolkein, but there you are copying the idea of Sauron and as long as you don't also call your demigod Sauron you're not doing anything illegal.

[Nathan Caroland]

:ditto:

Lets face it, so many ideas are hashed and rehashed today, you can't truly get an 'original' idea these days its seems. Music, TV, Books ... take a look at it and someone, somewhere, has done it before, in some form or another.

That to me isn't a problem. You are taking inspiration from another source. As long as you don't go blatantly naming it after such and such and marketing it as the 'original' idea then head off and do it.

What is being discussed is taking someones work or product, making a copy of it, and selling it. That's the same as making pirated DVD's and selling them. Someone is going to be upset, whether they have a kagillion dollars in the bank or not.

As for people that sculpt greens of Wood Elves, Space Marines and the like, personally I'm not sure on that one myself, I'll have to give it some real thought but my first impression is no its not 'bad'. More to the point, GW is quick to shut down anyone on Ebay that walks on their toes or so that they perceive (some of it is true and fair, some of it is complete rubish!) is infringing on their IP's. All these greens that have been coming up haven't been removed at all, so I'm guessing GW doesn't have a problem with it.

@ Mosch

I'll see if I can find that link again. It was for a woman that is kneeling on her knees and has missile breasts just perkin' right out there.

[Duende]

Let's face it... there's a special level of hell reserved for recasters who do it for only personal profit, rather than those who do it to enrich the lives of those who may not have been ever to obtain the mini otherwise.

:decision:

I've never knowingly bought a recast mini (I usually buy minis from stores anyway) but I know some resin kits I have gotten off of eBay are. And (I know I'm going to hell for this) because there's no way I could have afforded the original kit. So morality takes a backseat to money once again. Isn't that what it's all about anyway? Who profits the most?

:mad:

[Tagron]

That to me isn't a problem. You are taking inspiration from another source. As long as you don't go blatantly naming it after such and such and marketing it as the 'original' idea then head off and do it. QUOTE]

So if im sly, and i call my work by a different name, and i find some loop hole so that its legal, all of a sudden its allright?? You wouldnt but those recast minis because of the principal of the matter. For you to buy them is, in itself, not illegal, so you must be concerned with the morality of the action, as opposed to the legality.

So if you are indeed concerned with the morality, just because its not legaly wrong for me to steal the hours and hours of work of a concept artist, and just sculpt off his ideas, its still theft, as i have said. Think about it, its theft when it comes right down to it, yes i need to use some talent to "steal" it but there are lots of talented criminals out there. My sculpting it and selling it is my way of "stealing" it.

So be it legal or not, there is a base truth behind it, theft or completely original, and if you shy away from everything that isnt completely original you wont have anything to turn to. Like Frustrated father said, "take a look at it and someone, somewhere, has done it before, in some form or another." And hes right they have. You need to live with it, in the case of the recast mini's this guy is just being more blatent about it. But the underlieing truth is, its no different than a sculpt of saruon, titled "Dark lord Saruse".

[cdukino]

Personal experience... I did have someone before who showed me work which was obviously inspired by my work. Based on... not a copy, though various aspects were taken retty litterally. She told me so, she wanted to learn stuff and was inspired by my elfwood gallery... showed me the work and such... I was oke with it. No problem here.

I saw one of my works elsewhere (an older drawing I don't even like much anymore... not that that matters much and isn't really to the point)... this was given a new name for the drawing, was put on the rpg group as character illustration for his character (which I found by accident looking for a new rpg yahoo group for myself)... What ticked me off royally was, even despite I did not care for the drawing itself at all anymore, and probably would have said he could use it if he had asked... he had erased my name from the drawing with photoshop... entered his own and claimed on the group it was his drawing and he never notified me. Oke the elven sorceress had her blond hair painted black now (horrible photoshop job)... I dare say this is unetical if it's not illegal. I demanded he take it down... he did. He thought (or said he believed atleast) that pictures on the net were shareware or else people wouldn't put them there, so you could expect people to "borow" it... and his act was only meaningless and minor for he used it only on the group and for personal use.

[Duende]

[

So be it legal or not, there is a base truth behind it, theft or completely original, and if you shy away from everything that isnt completely original you wont have anything to turn to. Like Frustrated father said, "take a look at it and someone, somewhere, has done it before, in some form or another." And hes right they have. You need to live with it, in the case of the recast mini's this guy is just being more blatent about it. But the underlieing truth is, its no different than a sculpt of saruon, titled "Dark lord Saruse".

Not a recast, but cashing in on another's idea? Or is it just coincidence that these two minis put out by two different companies have the exact same weird pose?

Rackham:

Reaper:

This one has always bothered me. Sure, the women look completely different, but they're in the same pose! and an odd pose at that! Someone explain this to me! :afraid:

[Tagron]

Haha its a hack copy job for sure duende lol.

@cdukino

Yeah thats bad, claiming its their own work, pretty low. And that not what im saying, if fatass selling the casts is claiming he sculpted them, well we're in a whole new ball park. Just like im not going to claim to have drawn the concepts for my hack saurons armor.

[supervike]

Imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery...The similar pose thing seems pretty blatent, but that is definately one of my 'fears' with IP. How many minis have the holding up the severed head idea, or the 'i'm pointing at you' pose?

I think IP could run rampant someday, and everything will be a violation somehow.

Imagine a day when every word is some sort of copyrighted IP. [squiggly lines like dream sequence]

IP POLICE Sorry, you cannot use the word "bedrock" that is owned by Hanna Barbara Inc. You are infringing on their creative rights in doing so....

Well Digger What do you mean? I've got to dig through this bedrock to dig for oil.

IP PoliceWe really will need you to cease and desist. And you can't say Oil either, that word is owned my OPEC.