Effects at the strart of Activation.

[Pallas4]

Hello

I have two questions. Let's imagine Sir Vantès not far from Candy. He activates himself and uses "On the move" to get out of Candy's aura. Does Corrupted Innocence activate?

Let's say now (yes, let's be cruel to this gremlin) that he's buried by a Pine box from a Death Marshall.
When it activates, it's the bayou player who determines whether the unburry takes place before or after the one the move?

[Moinetbeard]

1 hour ago, le_wahou said:

If there is a pine box unbury effect coming from an ennemy model (=passive player), it should be resolved after every effects of active player, no ? The push of Ser Vantes should happen hile he is still buried.

correct. when resolving effects that are generated simultaneously, you resolve all effects of the active player first. so on the move would be resolved first whilst Ser Vantes is buried (ie, it wouldn't do anything) and then he would have a chance to unbury. 

[Adran]

According to the faq, all start of activation effects are generated before you start to resolve any of them. So yes the corrupted innocence will happen. 

Abd yes, the bayou player will choose the order of effects that apply to the bayou model when it activates. 

[le_wahou]

If there is a pine box unbury effect coming from an ennemy model (=passive player), it should be resolved after every effects of active player, no ? The push of Ser Vantes should happen hile he is still buried.

[Pallas4]

The question is: is the unburry an effect of Sir Vantès or Death Marshall?
Yes, the effect comes from the Death Marshall, but is it an effect on him or on his target? If it's on him, what happens if the Death Marshall dies or is removed from the game? Could it still be chosen when the miniature is activated?

[Moinetbeard]

21 hours ago, Adran said:

According to the faq, all start of activation effects are generated before you start to resolve any of them. So yes the corrupted innocence will happen. 

Abd yes, the bayou player will choose the order of effects that apply to the bayou model when it activates. 

well it does have to resolve friendly effects first  - the attempt to unbury is not a friendly effect so would always resolve after on the move.

5 hours ago, le_wahou said:

If there is a pine box unbury effect coming from an ennemy model (=passive player), it should be resolved after every effects of active player, no ? The push of Ser Vantes should happen hile he is still buried.

this is correct

3 hours ago, Pallas4 said:

The question is: is the unburry an effect of Sir Vantès or Death Marshall?
Yes, the effect comes from the Death Marshall, but is it an effect on him or on his target? If it's on him, what happens if the Death Marshall dies or is removed from the game? Could it still be chosen when the miniature is activated?

if the death marshall is killed whilst Ser Vantes is still buried he is unburied into base contact with the death marshall before it is removed from the table.

[Pallas4]

1 minute ago, Moinetbeard said:

if the death marshall is killed whilst Ser Vantes is still buried he is unburied into base contact with the death marshall before it is removed from the table.

True, but same question with glimpse the void. When the model with the trigger is killed, it changes nothing for the burried model. Or "into the furnace".

[Adran]

18 minutes ago, Moinetbeard said:

well it does have to resolve friendly effects first  - the attempt to unbury is not a friendly effect so would always resolve after on the move.

Does it? As far as I can see it is up to the active model the order it resolves effects on it. As far as I can see page 35 tells me to resolve all effects on 1 model first in the order of that models choosing. 

The unbury is an effect on ser vantes at this point, it is not an effect on the death marshal  and so when ser vantes activates thise two effects happen at the same time, and ca n be resolved in either order. 

 

[Moinetbeard]

3 minutes ago, Adran said:

Does it? As far as I can see it is up to the active model the order it resolves effects on it. As far as I can see page 35 tells me to resolve all effects on 1 model first in the order of that models choosing. 

The unbury is an effect on ser vantes at this point, it is not an effect on the death marshal  and so when ser vantes activates thise two effects happen at the same time, and ca n be resolved in either order. 

 

Oh yea my bad you're totally right - resolve all effects on friendly models first and then effects on enemy models next from the point of view of whoevers activation it is - doesn't matter if the effects are friendly or not. so yes @le_wahou, im pretty sure you can choose to attempt to unbury and then on the move if successful.

 

22 minutes ago, Pallas4 said:

True, but same question with glimpse the void. When the model with the trigger is killed, it changes nothing for the burried model. Or "into the furnace".

yep pretty sure you're right there - i think that even is the model that generated the bury effect is killed, the effect still persists.

[le_wahou]

16 hours ago, Adran said:

The unbury is an effect on ser vantes at this point, it is not an effect on the death marshal  and so when ser vantes activates thise two effects happen at the same time, and ca n be resolved in either order.

I always played the "alignment" of effect based on the card who generates it, not the card who suffers it. If X pushes Y, that's an effect from X. I have applied the same logic to pine box. The unbury from pine box would be in my opinion an effect of the model with the pine box action. In this case, It would be an effect ennemy to Ser Vantes

[Pallas4]

I think there's some confusion.
From what I understand...
Let's say player 1 is bayou, player 2 his opponent. The unburry effect of pine box, into the furnace or Glimpse the void (for example), is generated by player 2 at the moment of the attack. In other words, Sir Vantés wins a new rule explaining how to unburry. And who controls the unburry (since the rules are written from the card owner's point of view)?
But it's an effect that affects Sir Vantés. So step 1 of the simultaneous effects rules.

 

[le_wahou]

9 minutes ago, Pallas4 said:

I think there's some confusion.
From what I understand...
Let's say player 1 is bayou, player 2 his opponent. The unburry effect of pine box, into the furnace or Glimpse the void (for example), is generated by player 2 at the moment of the attack. In other words, Sir Vantés wins a new rule explaining how to unburry. And who controls the unburry (since the rules are written from the card owner's point of view)?
But it's an effect that affects Sir Vantés. So step 1 of the simultaneous effects rules

Ser Vantes does not gains a new rule. He is the target of an effect that will happen later. The unburry is still controlled by player 2.

The rule for simultaneous does not ask to check if the effect affects an active or passive model. it asks to take every models of active player with effects to be resolved, resolve all of these effects model by model, and then make the same for the passive player. An effect of a model of the active player that targets a model of the passive player is still an effect of the model of the active player. In my understanding, the unbury of Ser Vantes is an effect of the Death Marshall who buried him. It is controlled by the passive player and happens after the effects of the active player.

[Pallas4]

18 minutes ago, le_wahou said:

Ser Vantes does not gains a new rule. He is the target of an effect that will happen later. The unburry is still controlled by player 2.

The rule for simultaneous does not ask to check if the effect affects an active or passive model. it asks to take every models of active player with effects to be resolved, resolve all of these effects model by model, and then make the same for the passive player. An effect of a model of the active player that targets a model of the passive player is still an effect of the model of the active player. In my understanding, the unbury of Ser Vantes is an effect of the Death Marshall who buried him. It is controlled by the passive player and happens after the effects of the active player.

I misspoke (I shouldn't have written on the tram). I used the word "rule", I should have used "effect".

Sir Vantès gains an effect yes. An effect controlled by player 2. But it's Sir Vantes who has the effect. So it gets to stage 1.

If we replace with Into the Furnace (so Talos is the attacker). If Talos dies before Sir Vantès activates, how do we proceed? Player 2 can't choose a model that's no longer in the game. 

[le_wahou]

16 minutes ago, Pallas4 said:

I misspoke (I shouldn't have written on the tram). I used the word "rule", I should have used "effect".

Sir Vantès gains an effect yes. An effect controlled by player 2. But it's Sir Vantes who has the effect. So it gets to stage 1.

If we replace with Into the Furnace (so Talos is the attacker). If Talos dies before Sir Vantès activates, how do we proceed? Player 2 can't choose a model that's no longer in the game. 

I still disagree. If the unbury, in both of these case, was an effect on the buried model, the player of the buried model would make the choices. On Talos, if the unbury effect was an effect of the buried model, the ennemy models in the effect would be models in Talos crew.

The root of our opposition is that, in simultaneous effects, you rear the effects of active models as effects affecting models of active player, while I read it as effects generated by models of active player.

[Pallas4]

yep it's our opposition, we're at least agree on that. ^^

For the Talos, I disagree with you. As you said, it's not a rule but an effet, so the effect is, at the start of the target's activation, the Talos player unburries the target of an ennemy model of the Talos. Because cards are written with the point of view of the model.

and really, what do we do if the Talos dies? The rule says that you have to choose one of your models with unresolved effects. What do we do if a model is removed from the game? Does the model remain in the void?

[Adran]

11 minutes ago, le_wahou said:

I always played the "alignment" of effect based on the card who generates it, not the card who suffers it. If X pushes Y, that's an effect from X. I have applied the same logic to pine box. The unbury from pine box would be in my opinion an effect of the model with the pine box action. In this case, It would be an effect ennemy to Ser Vantes

The unbury of pine box is more a case if when X does something, then do something to X. I don't see that as an effect on the death marshal anymore. 

The alignment doesn't matter any more.  Yes the death marshal does the unbury, but that isn't relevant to the ordering as I see it.