Laying down the neverborn beats.

[Regelridderen]

Just had a irresistible offer on the x-roads 7 and was wondering, when/how do you guys like to run these?

[Ogid]

I'm also curious about it. I don't have them yet, but I haven't seen that much entusiasm for them in NVB neither...it's not very high in my to-buy list.

Our bubble master (Pandora) is quite good and one of our top tier masters (Dreamer) is one of the best ones to just park his crew in one spot and murder anything that decide to close the gap... so I think we have better options when a crew controlling an area is needed. Wrath seems useful between his "lure" and high damage potential, especially when he has access to a lot of Focused; but he is also very squishy so that's a risky leader choice. IDK, to play them for fun sure go for them, but if you are looking for a niche where that crew would be the best choice, I struggle to find it in this faction.

Maybe if you find some pocket strat that might work well with them... Envy plus Doppleganger could make for a decent gunline, but I'm not sure if that would be stronger than Lucius with Mimics and Angel Eyes one... GG1 nerfed Pride's spell, so crews around execute with him are now even less viable; but Greed and Lust got buffed, Greed is now a good option and her no SS ability is quite strong and Lust could have a niche setting up blasts (and that's a good use for the emissary) or Black Blood; and maybe Sloth could pair well with some Faes... IDK, you'll have to try it yourself.

I theroryfauxed a bit about them, but mind that was before GG1.

And there is also some info in this other thread

Good luck! If you finally try them, tell us how they work in NVB!

[LeperColony]

If you're looking at running them as a crew, Wrath is a good leader, and the fact that he doesn't have Manipulative often means you'll want to activate him earlier than many of the other band mates.  His Sin ability is also one of the easiest to use and one of the most effective, imo.  That being said, I don't tend to have him lead (even though he is the original leader) because NB upgrades aren't too exciting and the effigy doesn't rank highly for my playstyle.  I only do the CR7 as a crew together, so I don't know what it'd be like to hire some and not others.  

I've taken Wrath with Pandora a few times, and I think he works well.  His Sin token mechanic fits well with the rest of the bubble, and can protect Candy or Pandora in a pinch.  

[Ogid]

5 hours ago, LeperColony said:

That being said, I don't tend to have him lead (even though he is the original leader) because NB upgrades aren't too exciting and the effigy doesn't rank highly for my playstyle.  I only do the CR7 as a crew together, so I don't know what it'd be like to hire some and not others.  

Good to know he is at least viable. If you don't mind a few questions:

How did they do with Wrath as leader compared with a crew leaded by a Master? Did you have problems keeping him alive? When (pools/factions) would you pick him instead of Pandora or Dreamer?

[LeperColony]

I'm of the opinion that henchmen-led crews are at a noticeable disadvantage compared to Masters.  So for me, the only reason to pick Wrath would be to do the CR7.  Now, that doesn't necessarily mean you need everyone, but I've never done a CR7 crew and not taken the whole ensemble.  If you did want to cut some of them, Greed is quite situational.  The others have wider utility, but either Sloth or Gluttony could be another stone-saving reduction.

In a CR7 crew, keeping everyone alive is a bit of an issue.  There's not a ton of healing, and except for Wrath and Envy, they're all relying on Manipulative as their sole defense tech.  This is why I like Lust as the leader.  She's not the model I'd necessarily want the third AP on, but TT upgrades are really nice, and the Shadow Effigy's conceal aura can make a lot of difference.  

Other than Pandora or Dreamer, maybe Lucius?  Wrath's Sin ability is really nice.  Ultimately he can probably slot into most crews, especially if you have ways to move him around and keep his aura relevant.  Personally, it'd be hard to see him in a Euripides crew though.

[clockworkspide]

Gluttony's Mv 6 and marker shenanigans make them at least a decent scheme runner, in my (limited) experience.

[LeperColony]

49 minutes ago, clockworkspide said:

Gluttony's Mv 6 and marker shenanigans make them at least a decent scheme runner, in my (limited) experience.

Agreed, and his marker removal is excellent in many match ups.  But if I had to trim models from CR 7, he'd probably be second after Greed.  Maybe third after Sloth.  

[clockworkspide]

Did the errata help Lust much?  She was the one I left out the one time I tried the crew, pre-pandemic, and I remember the consensus on her being unfavorable at the time.  Although I was playing Outcasts, which might change the equation.

[LeperColony]

2 hours ago, clockworkspide said:

Did the errata help Lust much?  She was the one I left out the one time I tried the crew, pre-pandemic, and I remember the consensus on her being unfavorable at the time.  Although I was playing Outcasts, which might change the equation.

She got a solid buff, but still isn't anywhere near the best CR7 model.  If it weren't for the Shadow Effigy and the upgrades, I wouldn't pick her as the leader.

To me, the CR7 fall into three tiers:

1)  Wrath, Envy and Pride.  

2)  Lust, Gluttony, Sloth

3)  Greed

I'm not a very careful player, so I tend to overvalue defense tech as a hedge against personal incompetence.  If you're more confident in your positioning and tactics, then the Shadow Effigy is maybe less appealing.  

[Ogid]

Ty for the insight @LeperColony; I do like some Henchmans as leaders but only those that may bring to the table something different than the Master (in the form of mixed keywords or out of faction options) on top of being strong models themselves are the ones with potential, most of them aren't really leader material unless you want to handicap yourself for some reason (an introductory game?). I've had some succeess with Hinamatsu for example, it's not for every game but it's a good pick for some pools thanks to the large out of faction options she offers and how solid she is. I've been also toying with the idea of crews leaded by Carver, Hayreddin or WW, but I'm not sure if they would be as good as Hina.

The CR7 have that same potential, but between the dissadvantages you comment, having an squishy 7SS model as leader and (imo) better options on this faction for the pools they may be good (clasing with enemy crews is one of the strongest points of this faction), I struggle to see them as meta options; I might be biased tho, maybe they are very good but just hard to play (also this is probably not his best GG btw, squishy 7SS models are not what you want for Recover Evidence or Public enemies and they aren't mobile enough and depend too much of their auras to be an option for the other 2 strategies)

6 hours ago, LeperColony said:

Other than Pandora or Dreamer, maybe Lucius?  Wrath's Sin ability is really nice.  Ultimately he can probably slot into most crews, especially if you have ways to move him around and keep his aura relevant.  Personally, it'd be hard to see him in a Euripides crew though.

I like him, but for me he has a hard time competing with Hinamatsu for that beater with a Lure slot; I rather pay 2 extra more for her, but in a budget for 7SS he is a decent option. His aura is good, so that may be the thing that tips the balance in crews that like to bubble.

I have to disagree in your last point, I think in an Euripides crew he may be actually legit. That's the crew where Lyssas are fully supported, and those also have bring it (on top of Incorporeal and Frozen Vigor which make them tanky for a 4SS); so they can lure and stack sin tokens in other models an let Wrath pull off a few good Destructive performance.

A crew that I don't know if it's a thing (probably not) but where he might be also quite good is one leaded by Hayreddin. With him as leader Barbaros is a legit pick; another model that like to be slapped, a good model to reposition enemy models and a crew where attacking the wrong target may end healing a few of them or killing one of your own.

4 hours ago, clockworkspide said:

Did the errata help Lust much? 

About Greed and Lust, those 2 got big buffs this GG1 (something they needed badly on the other hand); both are significantly better than before:

Lust got Df5, she is still as squishy as other members but no longer have the tittle for the squisiest of the squishy, and she also got a , she was the only CR7 without one. On top of that Seduction and Now, Kiss! are very good abilities imo. Removing Focused might keep alive those squishy henchmans a bit longer and that reposition/stacking is really good, especially in a crew they may stack 2 or 3 models full of sin and burn those tokens for up to 12 damage EACH for only 2 actions (plus 2 free actions with the triggers), enable wrath redirects or emissary's ; that they may access for only 2SS from turn 3).

Greed got a mele attack that gives sin automatically, something huge for her as she had a very hard time stacking sin herself and had no engagement range back in GG0. Her aura is very enemy-crew dependent tho; versus a crew with a lot of SS users that like to dive, she may be very good as those models usually rely on SS to not die or buy high impact triggers.

[LeperColony]

On 8/9/2020 at 2:14 AM, Ogid said:

I like him, but for me he has a hard time competing with Hinamatsu for that beater with a Lure slot; I rather pay 2 extra more for her, but in a budget for 7SS he is a decent option. His aura is good, so that may be the thing that tips the balance in crews that like to bubble.

This is a common misconception about him, in my opinion.  He isn't a beater, so he shouldn't be competing for beater slots.  He's a support model.  The reason you bring him in a crew is his sin aura.  So then, to get value from him, you have the lure.  His attack is okay, and turning off resistance triggers ranges from critically important to irrelevant depending on the match up, but I rarely use his .

So it's not really a choice between him and Hinamatsu.  It's between him and Serena Bowman, or the Doppleganger or some other support model.  

On 8/9/2020 at 2:14 AM, Ogid said:

I have to disagree in your last point, I think in an Euripides crew he may be actually legit. That's the crew where Lyssas are fully supported, and those also have bring it (on top of Incorporeal and Frozen Vigor which make them tanky for a 4SS); so they can lure and stack sin tokens in other models an let Wrath pull off a few good Destructive performance.

Although I've never used him in Euripides, the reason I'd be wary is all the large bases and pillars will really cut into his aura.  And if you're bringing him to try and support the schemers, then he can't protect your key models.  

If you look to use him as more of a damage dealer, then obviously his aura matters less.  But I don't bring him for damage, as I feel there are better options.

On 8/9/2020 at 2:14 AM, Ogid said:

Greed got a mele attack that gives sin automatically, something huge for her as she had a very hard time stacking sin herself and had no engagement range back in GG0. Her aura is very enemy-crew dependent tho; versus a crew with a lot of SS users that like to dive, she may be very good as those models usually rely on SS to not die or buy high impact triggers.

Yeah, Greed pre-buff was an absolutely terrible model.  Now she's just match up dependent.  Since I run the full band when I do CR7 I bring her anyway, but if there's any place to save on stones, I think she's an easy cut.

[Ogid]

7 hours ago, LeperColony said:

This is a common misconception about him, in my opinion.  He isn't a beater, so he shouldn't be competing for beater slots.  He's a support model.  The reason you bring him in a crew is his sin aura.  So then, to get value from him, you have the lure.  His attack is okay, and turning off resistance triggers ranges from critically important to irrelevant depending on the match up, but I rarely use his .

So it's not really a choice between him and Hinamatsu.  It's between him and Serena Bowman, or the Doppleganger or some other support model.

I think I can get behind this... When I said beater with a Lure I was thinking more in utility model with good punch. I usually cram Hinamatsu as a premium model for that role able to get into the fray if needed.

The bigger difference I see between your reasoning and mine is that you seem to value way more than me his aura; however I struggle a bit to put it in good use. Versus which kind of crews/with which kind of crews do you pick him for the aura (outside of CR7) and how do you maximice its benefices?

[LeperColony]

16 hours ago, Ogid said:

The bigger difference I see between your reasoning and mine is that you seem to value way more than me his aura

I actually think his aura is why you take him.  Can he do other things?  Sure.  But as you've pointed out, there are other options for those things.  The only capability he brings that can't be replicated is the aura, and it's a fantastic defense tech with virtually no answer.  The ideal use is to send attacks to enemy models, but even just the ability to distribute them to your own people can be the difference between the original target living and dying.  I haven't played him against the Nekima alpha strike list yet (since I've never played against it at all), but the ability to spread subsequent attacks to other models seems like a possible counter.

16 hours ago, Ogid said:

Versus which kind of crews/with which kind of crews do you pick him for the aura (outside of CR7) and how do you maximice its benefices?

Wrath has become essentially an auto pick for me in Pandora.  His aura stacks great with the rest of the bubble, and his lure is fantastic since neither Pandora nor Candy (the two principle friendly targets) have .  I use him as sort of a Candy shuttle service, since she wants to stay unactivated but often needs a reposition to remain relevant.  I've taken him in Lucius before, but he didn't really prove effective.  That was probably more my fault than his, and ultimately I think he could have a place there.

I think he has maximum value with Pandora, but I could see him in almost any other Neverborn if you're worried about alpha strikes or leapy beaters, though as I mentioned I don't really think he'd be great in Euripides.  He's not Swampfiend, so he may be a bit of a harder sell in Zoraida.  

If the strat or scheme pool require models to be in certain places, so like Corrupted Ley Lines or Claim Jump/Leave Your Mark, it's easier to make use of his aura.  And those would also maximize his lure.

Of course, I should add that I'm a pretty mediocre player, so I can't claim any great insight!

[Ogid]

If you are using it successfuly, there is insight there . 

My main problem with the aura is that is one of those abilities that is powerful, but at the same time is quite hard to use; so I always end picking other models instead of him. There are 3 posibilities after an enemy model get 1 sin token (which usually require first a successful attack inside of it):

• The enemy position himself to only have 1 posible target, then the aura is useless. Worst case.
• There are 2+ posible targets, all friendly; you can redirect, your crew still take the attack but you may use a tankier/less relevant model take the hit. Okish case.
• There are 2+ posible targets and one of them is enemy. Best case scenario.

Situation nº3 is not something that other player is going to offer voluntarily; it might limit some of his positioning options but that's all. That leaves 1 or 2 (usually nº1 unless the other player thinks he can kill both). So to really make good use of this ability the crew has to be able to put enemy models near of each other and the other crew has to be limited in repositioning options (for example, a model with leap can just jump and position himself only in range of attacking 1 model or use another model to break LoS with Wrath).

So, do you usually use Lures and displacement to put enemy models near of each other or just the threat of the aura and limiting the positioning is enough to make it worth it?

Pandora with all her lures and misery pings able to move models seems like a good crew to field him, and using him to cart Candy around sounds good... I usually use the Rider for that, but he is cheaper than the rider and more durable than a Lyssa so I could see a good fit there for some games.