Blasts - What are they anyway?

[Flib Jib]

So I had a question come up in a game last night where I was asked the simple question, “What are blasts?” 

In the game I was observing there were two buildings about 2” apart which made roughly a 6” alleyway. In the middle of the alley there were 3 models all bunched up and one of them was the target of an attack action with a blast. Several rules questions came up. 

I want to focus on the part of the rules, “A BLAST is Dropped by the Active player into base contact with the target.”

1. Can the blast even be Dropped if it cannot fit base to base? (Impeding terrain)
2. Do Blasts follow the marker “Dropped” rules.
3. Do they follow the same “base to base” rules that markers do and can be placed underneath the original target or other blast markers?
4. How does it interact with impassable terrain? Are models standing on the other side of an impassable wall  still susceptible to blasts originating from the other side?
5. Do they interact like Impassable Markers in that they cannot overlap Impassable Terrain or other markers?
6. Do they follow marker rules of elevations where,“If a Marker is moved off an elevated surface, it falls just like a model.” So if a model is standing atop elevation base to base with its edge and the blast is placed in such a way that there’s nothing underneath, does it fall?
7. Blasts don’t have LoS restrictions correct? So models don’t have to have LoS to the originating model correct?
8. If Blasts are “assumed to extend 1” vertically above and below”  this does not block LoS correct? 
    

I am referencing several rules below. I want to note that the word “Marker” does not appear at any point when describing Blasts. Instead they use “50mm base” 

Quote

Blasts Pg.30

A is Dropped by the Active player into base contact with the target. If more than one   is Dropped (i.e., if multiple   are shown), each additional  must be Dropped into base contact with at least one other   (instead of the target). A  is assumed to extend 1” vertically above and below the target’s base (and thus may come into base contact with models that are slightly above or below the target).

 

Quote

Drop and Create Pg.28

When a Marker is added to the table, it can be either Dropped or Created. 

If a Marker is Dropped, it is simply put on the table in the indicated location without any further game effects; this is not considered moving the Marker. It can be put into base contact or even under a model’s base without issue. If an Impassable Marker is Dropped, it is always treated as being Created instead.

If a Marker is Created, it is treated as Dropped, with the following additional rules described below: 

1. Created Markers can overlap non»Impassable terrain, but they cannot overlap other Markers.
2. Created Markers cannot be put into base contact with any models except for the model creating them. Impassable Markers cannot be Created in such a way that their base overlaps the base of the model creating them.

 

Quote

Place Pg.15

If the Place effect has a range, measure from the closest point of the base in the desired direction to place the Object (do not take into account vertical distance), and place it anywhere within that range. If it cannot fit in the location, it cannot be placed and does not move (or count as moving).
 

 

[solkan]

40 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

So I had a question come up in a game last night where I was asked the simple question, “What are blasts?” 

In the game I was observing there were two buildings about 2” apart which made roughly a 6” alleyway. In the middle of the alley there were 3 models all bunched up and one of them was the target of an attack action with a blast. Several rules questions came up. 

I want to focus on the part of the rules, “A BLAST is Dropped by the Active player into base contact with the target.”

1. Can the blast even be Dropped if it cannot fit base to base? (Impeding terrain)

There's an important caveat.  Nothing can be positioned in impassible terrain:

Quote

Objects cannot be Dropped or placed overlapping Impassable Terrain.

Otherwise, what do you mean by "impeding"?

 

40 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

1. Do Blasts follow the marker “Dropped” rules.

What relevant rules would those be?  

40 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

1. Do they follow the same “base to base” rules that markers do and can be placed underneath the original target or other blast markers?

I'm just going to point out the Blasts example where the blast "touching" Pandora is clearly being positioned under/through her base.

40 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

1. How does it interact with impassable terrain? Are models standing on the other side of an impassable wall  still susceptible to blasts originating from the other side?

See above.  "Objects cannot be Dropped or placed overlapping Impassible Terrain."  You can't put the Blast through the impassable wall, you'd have to construct a sequence around it.

40 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

1. Do they interact like Impassable Markers in that they cannot overlap Impassable Terrain or other markers?

No rule indicates that Blasts are Impassable Markers.

40 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

1. Do they follow marker rules of elevations where,“If a Marker is moved off an elevated surface, it falls just like a model.” So if a model is standing atop elevation base to base with its edge and the blast is placed in such a way that there’s nothing underneath, does it fall?

I think there's two parts to this answer:

Part A.  If you place something and it cannot remain where you put it, you haven't placed it there.  

Part B.  The reference to moving Markers is because there are rules like Kaeris's Fan the Flames action which Pushes a Pyre Marker a few inches, and they wanted to ensure that the Pyre Markers wouldn't just sit there floating in the air.

40 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

1. Blasts don’t have LoS restrictions correct? So models don’t have to have LoS to the originating model correct?

The LoS requirements that were in M2E no longer exist.

40 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

1. If Blasts are “assumed to extend 1” vertically above and below”  this does not block LoS correct? 

As markers:

Quote

Markers do not block LoS (unless they have the Blocking Trait).

40 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

1. I am referencing several rules below. I want to note that the word “Marker” does not appear at any point when describing Blasts. Instead they use “50mm base” 

See the example on the bottom of the page, below the Blasts rules.

 

[Flib Jib]

5 minutes ago, solkan said:

There's an important caveat.  Nothing can be positioned in impassible terrain:

Thanks, this is helpful.

10 minutes ago, solkan said:

Otherwise, what do you mean by "impeding"?

The Impassable terrain.

11 minutes ago, solkan said:

What relevant rules would those be?  

The “Dropped” rules.😅 One example would be, "...or even under a model’s base without issue"

12 minutes ago, solkan said:

I'm just going to point out the Blasts example where the blast "touching" Pandora is clearly being positioned under/through her base.

I almost referenced this example because I wanted to distinguish the possible difference between 'All other models' and 'original target' Clearly the interaction of other models are clear but my question was in regards to the original target and also other markers.

18 minutes ago, solkan said:

See above.  "Objects cannot be Dropped or placed overlapping Impassible Terrain."  You can't put the Blast through the impassable wall, you'd have to construct a sequence around it.

Thanks! This is very helpful.

19 minutes ago, solkan said:

No rule indicates that Blasts are Impassable Markers.

Thanks, to be clear, impassible Ht0 strategy markers have no interaction with Blasts correct?

22 minutes ago, solkan said:

Part A.  If you place something and it cannot remain where you put it, you haven't placed it there.  

I love this logic. It also makes sense with how placement rules do not keep a memory of elevation. Otherwise models with flight moving off  elevated terrain would "place" into thin air then fall which is simply not how the rules work.

27 minutes ago, solkan said:

Part B.  The reference to moving Markers is because there are rules like Kaeris's Fan the Flames action which Pushes a Pyre Marker a few inches, and they wanted to ensure that the Pyre Markers wouldn't just sit there floating in the air.

I see  the genesis of these rules and am glad Wyrd did their due diligence but just wanted to see if these rules had other practical applications like with blast markers

28 minutes ago, solkan said:

The LoS requirements that were in M2E no longer exist.

That's what I thought. Wish I could wipe some of the 2e rules from memory.

30 minutes ago, solkan said:

As markers:

Quote

Markers do not block LoS (unless they have the Blocking Trait).

Thanks! This is super helpful.

[solkan]

3 hours ago, Thimblesage said:

Thanks, to be clear, impassible Ht0 strategy markers have no interaction with Blasts correct?

A marker with a terrain trait is considered terrain.  So an impassible Ht0 strategy marker is a 30mm disk of impassible terrain sitting their on the table.  So there's going to be the same "You cannot place or drop here" interaction if you've got a target standing nearby.

That is, to be specific:  Death Marshal is standing right next to a 30mm impassible Ht0 marker.  They're on the same elevation level.  If you tried to put a blast marker through the Ht0 impassible marker, you couldn't.

If the Death Marshal was standing on Ht1 terrain, and then down at elevation level 0 there was a Ht0 30mm impassible terrain marker, then that would unfortunately be clipping the impassible terrain and not allowed.

Note that I'm looking at the various uses of the term "overlapping" in the rulebook, I think this is the operative definition of "overlapping":

Quote

Any time a model’s base is overlapping terrain, it is said to be in that terrain. If a model’s base is touching terrain (either overlapping or directly next to the terrain), that model is within 0" of that terrain.

and

Quote

A  is assumed to extend 1" vertically above and below the target’s base (and thus may come into base contact with models that are slightly above or below the target).

You wouldn't be safely putting the blast over (and not touching) the Ht0 impassible marker until the target's base was at elevation 2 or higher.

You can't walk across or through those impassible Ht0 markers without special rules.  Getting in the way of blasts doesn't seem much worse than that.   

 

 

3 hours ago, Thimblesage said:

I almost referenced this example because I wanted to distinguish the possible difference between 'All other models' and 'original target' Clearly the interaction of other models are clear but my question was in regards to the original target and also other markers.

As far as I can tell, you can now put blast markers "underneath" the target model, just like you can drop corpse markers and scrap markers "underneath" the dropping model now.  That "underneath" really just being at the same elevation as the target, at least partially occupying the same segment of the plane.

 

[Flib Jib]

Thank you so much @solkan for all your help and patients. Really appreciate it.

[Sol_Sorrowsong]

A little resurrection, but if a model is under multiple blast markers, does it take damage from each marker or only one for the attack?

[Adran]

Just now, Sol_Sorrowsong said:

A little resurrection, but if a model is under multiple blast markers, does it take damage from each marker or only one for the attack?

All models, except the original target, whose bases are in base contact with one or more take damage that is one step lower than the damage suffered by the original target.

 

That "one or more" means it doesn't mater if you are in contact with 1, 2 or 3, you just take the damage once.

 

Back to the original question,  Blasts aren't markers. I'm not sure if they are objects. I think you have to follow the dropped markers rules, as the only rules we have for something being dropped, but I'm not sure that they can't go in Impassible. I think They can float as they are said to affect things 1" below the blast.