Mysterious Emissary's Hungry Land Markers and Flight/Incorp

[anencephalous]

If an incorporeal or flying model ends a walk or push within 3" of the Hungry Land Marker, they have to flip a WK duel. But do they take damage?

"Hungry Land Markers are Ht 0, Severe, Hazardous Terrain which deal 1/4/5 damage. Any model which ends a move or push within 3" of a Hungry Land Marker must pass a TN 14 Wk duel or suffer damage as if entering it."
"Hazardous - Terrain that is considered hazardous deals damage to models that Activate while within it, or enter it (if they are pushed, moved, or placed within the terrain). All hazardous terrain deals 1/2/4 damage by default, but some may cause greater damage if both players wish. The opposing player flips for hazardous terrain damage, which may not be cheated. A model may only suffer damage from each piece of hazardous terrain once during each Turn; it is immune to further damage from that piece of terrain during that Turn. "

I read the "as if entering" to mean as if the model had moved into the terrain during that walk or push action. 

Moreover, the wording says "at the end", not "after", so I assume it is still part of a move and therefore the moving piece is still immune.

However in another thread people have argued that the model takes damage, since the check is resolved after the movement.

Which is correct?

[Ludvig]

When you enter with flight/incorp you are ignoring the terrain rules soyou don't take damage. The markers have a different wording so don't necesarily have the same interaction.

Quoting the flight icorp rules could be relevant, don't have access to my books.

[whodares]

My statement in the other thread:

2 hours ago, whodares said:

If you stop in the 50mm marker, there is no walk duel. You just straight go for the damage flip.

If you stop within 3" of the marker, you have to take the walk duel. If you fail that duel, you have to take the damage flip.

 

Flight has the following description:

Flight: This model is immune to falling damage and may ignore any terrain or models while moving.

 

Incorporeal: 

This model ignores, and is ignored by, other models and terrain during any movement or push. Reduce all damage this model suffers from Sh and Ml Attack Actions by half.

 

While moving and during any movement or push. Since you end the move/push, I see this as not being while or during movement.

If I have seen this wrong and those models would indeed be immune due to the wording, it takes out a lot of power of the marker indeed and makes it a lot more manageable.

 

If you end the movement on the marker itself, you don't take the damage as you are immune to it WHEN ENTERING it.

If you end the movement within 3" of the marker, you have to go for the walk duel. If you fail that duel, you have to take the damage AS IF ENTERING the hazardous zone.

The ambiguity is because of the wording on the abikities themselves. When exactly does a movement end? Is it when the action end or when the model decides to stop moving? I feel like this could use an entry in the global FAQ as it has been the point of discussion for over 2 years by now. We need a clear cut answer on this instead of the interpretation that we are using now.

There are cases for both taking and not taking the damage depending on how you explain the part of "ending a movement", which is what makes it hard.

If looking at it realistically, it makes sense your flying model takes damage when he stops and lands on lava. However we know some things in this game are not realistic (looking at you vantage point and shooting range).

I play it so that the model does take the damage if he lands within the marker of the marker. After all, he has ended his movement and is not moving anymore.

However, others say he's taking his duel at the end of the movement action before the action has fully completed and thus he is still "moving".

I feel like you can take either rule and they would both work if you can just explain your viewpoint.

Take what you feel comfortable with and roll with until. That's the best we can do until we get an official statement regarding this situation.

[anencephalous]

Quote

 

For a moment, consider the related question "If an Incorporeal or Flying model ends its movement in hazardous terrain, does it take damage?"

The answer is "Yes, it takes damage" to both questions.

 

 

Umm, why do they take damage if they end a move in it?

The rules say "enters it" or " Activate while within it", not "ends a move in it", do they not?

[Ludvig]

If it had ignored it "during any movement o push" it would b clear cut sice you are still resolving that effect. When you are in the process of ending a move you aren't really moving anymore so it seems to me like you take the damage.

[Bengt]

13 hours ago, anencephalous said:

 

Umm, why do they take damage if they end a move in it?

The rules say "enters it" or " Activate while within it", not "ends a move in it", do they not?

Some people think that ending the movement (when the model transitions from their moving terrain ignoring state to their normal unmoving state) inside the hazardous terrain count as entering it.

Others think that a model only enters terrain when it crosses the border, while they are still immune.

It has been discussed at length without consensus and Wyrd has not deigned to FAQ it.

[anencephalous]

2 hours ago, Bengt said:

Some people think that ending the movement (when the model transitions from their moving terrain ignoring state to their normal unmoving state) inside the hazardous terrain count as entering it.

Others think that a model only enters terrain when it crosses the border, while they are still immune.

It has been discussed at length without consensus and Wyrd has not deigned to FAQ it.

That is frankly baffling to me, given that they give a definition for "enter" - (if they are pushed, moved, or placed within the terrain). To end a movement within a terrain, you have to already entered it, that seems self evident. 

This all comes down to reading the rules in the way they are intended to be played. If they had wanted to have had a check for Hazardous Terrain at the end of the turn, and then they would have written when entering, ending in, or activating in terrain. I imagine the reason they didn't is that it is hard to imagine a scenario where someone might end up in terrain without having first entered it!

Likewise for the Hungry Land tokens, if that had intended it to be special, undodgeable terrain (I imagine magical, grasping vines), they could have written "Hungry Land Markers are Ht 0, Severe, Hazardous Terrain which deal 1/4/5 damage. Any model which ends a move or push within 3" of a Hungry Land Marker must pass a TN 14 Wk duel or suffer damage 1/4/5. If they take damage in this way they are immune to further damage from this Marker for the rest of the turn".

It seems to me the intent is to make the tokens AoE effect a slightly weaker version of the normal Hazardous Terrain (since you also don't have check on activating within 3"). But that does assume a of reading Hazardous Terrain where entering means entering, not entering means ending.

[whodares]

33 minutes ago, anencephalous said:

That is frankly baffling to me, given that they give a definition for "enter" - (if they are pushed, moved, or placed within the terrain). To end a movement within a terrain, you have to already entered it, that seems self evident. 

This all comes down to reading the rules in the way they are intended to be played. If they had wanted to have had a check for Hazardous Terrain at the end of the turn, and then they would have written when entering, ending in, or activating in terrain. I imagine the reason they didn't is that it is hard to imagine a scenario where someone might end up in terrain without having first entered it!

Likewise for the Hungry Land tokens, if that had intended it to be special, undodgeable terrain (I imagine magical, grasping vines), they could have written "Hungry Land Markers are Ht 0, Severe, Hazardous Terrain which deal 1/4/5 damage. Any model which ends a move or push within 3" of a Hungry Land Marker must pass a TN 14 Wk duel or suffer damage 1/4/5. If they take damage in this way they are immune to further damage from this Marker for the rest of the turn".

It seems to me the intent is to make the tokens AoE effect a slightly weaker version of the normal Hazardous Terrain (since you also don't have check on activating within 3"). But that does assume a of reading Hazardous Terrain where entering means entering, not entering means ending.

Entering means ending for the 3" aura around the Hazardous Terrain, not for inside of it. Read my previous response again as I have detailed both sides there.

[Ludvig]

42 minutes ago, anencephalous said:

It seems to me the intent is to make the tokens AoE effect a slightly weaker version of the normal Hazardous Terrain (since you also don't have check on activating within 3"). But that does assume a of reading Hazardous Terrain where entering means entering, not entering means ending.

The thing is that incorp and flying interact with it differently depending on when it happens and ending near the markers gives a different timing than the normal check when entering. When they would normally take the damage (while moving) they are ignoring it since they are moving but the duel moves the hazard check to after they have stopped moving at which point they aren't immune anymore.

[solkan]

For a moment, consider the related question "If an Incorporeal or Flying model ends its movement in hazardous terrain, does it take damage?"

The answer is "Yes, it takes damage" to both questions.