Starting with Rasputina or Colette?

[Klat]

A group of friends were going to start paying Malifaux, we are going to start playing at 35ss, simply with a crew box.

I have already decided to play with Arcanists, but for my initial crew i'm in between Rasputina and Colette.

With Rasputina I like the concept of Ice Mirror, and I think will be easy to grasp, on the other hand I think that Colette will be much harder to gras, but feel more fun and rewarding when archieved.

Also, I don't know how good are their crews right of the box.

The last thing, as far as I know, both of them benefits mostly of the same models (Acolytes, Silent Ones, Ice Dancers...), so, will be easy to transition to the other as second master?

[Blackraw]

Hands down Colette box is more independent than Raspy's one.

Some of the models will intertwine indeed. With "box only" restriction I would favour Colette.

As for the playstyle - that is pretty much up to individual preferences.

 

[Boomstick]

The main thing Colette's box can feel like it's missing is staying power. I've had plenty of games where I've run mostly Showgirls and feel like I'm dropping models right and left compared to.my opponent, and will end the game with only Colette and maybe Cassandra and a dove. But, I will say it helped me focus on getting points over worryong how many models I have left. Now I have a reputation for coming from behind with a 4-5 point turn and winning with almost nothing on the table, to the point my more regular opponents are sweating more if I'm in that position than if I still have plenty of models on the board.

So, yes, @Klat, Colette is quite rewarding when she clicks for you.

I don't yet own Raspy, so I can't speak from experience here, but from what i hear, her box definitely feels it needs something else added to run smooth. Snowstorm or Angelica for some movement tricks, and some December Acolytes for forward ice mirrors and general annoyance.

Personally, I'd suggest Colette's box unless you have a singular love of beating face. A few 35ss is perfect to get her tricks down (check out her stickied thread for some fun things to do), so that when you can add more you'll have a solid core. She also can run with a wider variety of Arcanist models, is my understanding. Raspy apparently REALLY likes her Frozen Heart guys, but Colette can use them as well (Acolytes and Silent Ones especially), so grabbing them, then Raspy as a second or third master down the line would leave you well set up for an incredibly wide variety of strats, scheme pools, and platstyles.

[Mxbedlam]

Yeah Raspy's box really needs Snowstorm or the Blessed instead of the Ice Golem but its not unplayable. Colette's box lacks a heavy hitter but doesn't necessarily need it to work if the scheme pool is right. Probably the most self sufficient boxes in Arcanists are Ramos' and Ironside's boxes. Each have extremely valuable models for building your arcanist crew and each are pretty playable (though you'll want more spiders eventually)

[Klat]

28 minutes ago, Mrbedlam said:

Probably the most self sufficient boxes in Arcanists are Ramos' and Ironside's boxes. Each have extremely valuable models for building your arcanist crew and each are pretty playable (though you'll want more spiders eventually)

I know that Ramos is the best way to start Arcanist, but even if i don't dislike any of the arcanist masters, just those 2 are the ones that i like the least xD.

 

52 minutes ago, Boomstick said:

Personally, I'd suggest Colette's box unless you have a singular love of beating face.

In my group i have certain reputation in games of being a coward hard to kill while concentrating in victory conditions instead of attacking my enemy. When i saw "Now you se me..." i thought: if i play this they are going to hate me.

[Mxbedlam]

To be fair, my favorite Colette crew is basically a Raspy crew without Raspy or Snowstorm. So cheers

[dancater]

So OK

Raspy box is not bad, the Wendigo is a excellent totem, the Ice Gamin are good and even have limited playability with others, notably Sandeep, the weakest model in the box is the Golem and he is still fair.  Raspy needs speed and the Ice Dancers, Snowstorm and Blessed of December are all brilliant additions for her and the Silent One and December Acolyte are so good they are staples in a majority of solid Arcanist lists regardless of master.  So with Raspy box you can add any of those secondary Frozen Heart themed models and really add to her.

She plays as a smash mouth wizard launching deadly frost spells through Frozen Heart models and generally causing mayhem.  Her crew does schemes and strats and maybe also extra killing while keeping bad guys away from Raspy herself.  Her banes are fast melee and extra long ranged shooting.  She is a fun and relatively simple master helped by the fact that Frozen Heart models are immune to horror which is a nasty mechanic which opponents can nail you with (notably Neverborn and Rezzers).  However she is tricky to play in many match ups as she has obvious weaknesses alongside her obvious strengths and is thus a fun master to learn but a difficult master to maximize.

The Colette box is first class.  The Doves are great support totems which Colette can potentially summon as well, the Performers are first tier scheme runners with some sting and are Arcanist staples and as mercenaries even see action in many non faction crews, the Mannequins are excellent construct support models and Cassandra is a very good Henchman taken in many Arcanist crews.  What the box needs is some staying power and/or punch to go along with Cassandra (who is OK at killing but only OK), the Coryphees and resulting Duet is obvious and simply a superb if expensive killing model.  The Ramos box contains Howard Langston and Joss both superb beaters.  The Mechanical Rider is so good its almost unfair.  December Acolytes and Silent Ones also love to slum with Colette when the snows of winter get to depressing and they want bright lights.  Oh and don't forget the new Showgirls Carlos Vasquez the fire dancer and the Ice Dancers, both are good.  Lastly Angelica and the Raptors, renowned as being simply brilliant.

Colette is almost the opposite of Raspy.  She is a support master, she is the most fragile master in the game without her tricks and triggers but with them can be so difficult to kill opponents cry, but make a mistake and she will die to a stiff breeze.  She does not kill, nor really scheme run herself, what she does in make everything else do it better and aggravates her opponents at the same time.  Her crew does the heavy lifting but most Showgirls are also pretty vulnerable and they don't hit like sledgehammers but Rapiers, fine swift cuts and never stop moving because if you do an actual sledgehammer may cave your skull in.  Colette is a really hard master and crew to learn in large part because her very play style emphasizes an aspect of Malifaux most new players (especially experienced gamers in other systems) have a problem wrapping their minds around, winning with schemes and strats - Colette can not kill a model lose most if not all of her own and beat you 10 VP's : 2 VP's.... But this is not a intuitive way to play initially and many folks try to smash enemies into paste, and Colette struggles here while being vulnerable to getting pasted herself.  A rewarding master to play and she really emphasizes what makes Malifaux a game of depth and nuance, but not a easy master and unforgiving of mistakes, initially you'll likely get absolutely crushed in games as you wrap your head around the Showgirls crew.

Personally I think Rasputina may be one of the best starting masters and crews in this game, she is simple, her crew theme is almost universally excellent and this is a 1st class beginner to experienced crew.

Colette is my first love as a master, I love the theme, the crew and the playing style.  She is tough but so much fun when played well.

Colette and Rasputina were actually the first two crews I got and played in Malifaux.  I will say that Rasputina was simply more fun at the beginning but will admit that is I had to play one master and crew forevermore... it would be Colette and the Stat Theater troupe.

  

[dancater]

And yes the Ramos box is an almost staple for Arcanist factions containing invaluable models for many crews (notably not really Marcus and only very limited for Raspy).

But Ramos is a true summoner and getting into the old mech master is expensive simply because even to start you'll need at least one box of Mech Spiders (above what's in the Ramos box) if not two for summons.  Also if the summoning mechanic does not immediately inspire you I'd stick to Raspy or Colette, models you'll want for them also play into other Arcanist crews later still.  But particularly for Colette crews in the future you'll want the Ramos box soon as Howard is a very common Colette crew include and Joss is solid with her as well, as for the Mech Spiders - they are great as well but less common for Colette (and Raspy you would never buy them [note the Mechanical Rider can summon them if you eventually take her]).

So yeah eventually if you like Malifaux and like Arcanist's then you'll sign on to the Union rolls and buy Ramos... But it can wait a little while.

[Klat]

I don't dislike summoning, in fact initially i considered starting with sandeep, but i discarded it because i thinked that without a variety of gamins he wont have his potential.

In Ramos is more of a problem of the summons, i'm not particularly fond of mechanical spiders, and Howard is the only arcanist model that i dislike.

[Boomstick]

20 minutes ago, Klat said:

I know that Ramos is the best way to start Arcanist, but even if i don't dislike any of the arcanist masters, just those 2 are the ones that i like the least xD.

I felt the same about Ramos. He's grown on me, but while he's solid I just don't see him and his crew as super interesting. But his box is soooo solid.

20 minutes ago, Klat said:

In my group i have certain reputation in games of being a coward hard to kill while concentrating in victory conditions instead of attacking my enemy. When i saw "Now you se me..." i thought: if i play this they are going to hate me.

As one who is also known for being "schemey" over "killy", I know this feeling, and they will. But they'll learn the tricks to deal with Colette being slippery, and it'll get you all to up your game. As my girlfriend says "To hear you tell it, everything in Malifaux is super good or broken. So does it really matter?" And she's right. Everything is good at its own niche, so they'll jokingly hate you, but you'll hate whoever's playing Perdita, or Pandora, or any number of others until you get your heard wrapped around them a bit as well.

 

[Boomstick]

Howard is the only arcanist model that i dislike.

As far as asthetics, have you seen Miss Step, his Miss model?

I wouldn't worry about him too much in any case. While Hank is great for damage and (honestly moreso) board control through the threat of said damage, he's very expensive for what you get out of him. I love him in a Mei crew, with Ramos, and occaaaaasionally Kaeris, but otherwise I haven't found myself hiring him much.

Tried the old (no longer legal, post errata) multi-prompt Hank in a Colette crew, and while it's certainly effective at clearing the table of opposing models, it's the opposite of fun. Either he cleared the table and yoir opponent was sad, or they took him out and Colette was out her main Prompt target.

Much more fun for all to bring a few good targets (Cassandra, Acolyte, Silent One, Ice Dancer, Union Miner (All Together Now? Yes please!), Willie/Miss Fire, Coryphee, and now Carlos are all great choices) and really make the crew feel like a well-oiled stage troope rather than Colette having to repeatedly give Hank his lines and prod him into his part (He's such a prima donna, I swear. Bloody diva).

As far as further beating/staying power, Carlos is both of those things for the Showgirls, and Coryphee are very killy and surprisingly survivable as long as they stay away from anything that denies armor. For sticking to Raspy friendly models, Acolytes are amazing for their cost both in damage and staying power, and if you want to make Cassandra hit harder, put a Silent One within 8" and watch her make a snow-cone out of her target with Understudy and Freeze.

[Trixter]

13 hours ago, dancater said:

because even to start you'll need at least one box of Mech Spiders

Dancater tell completely right things except this one. In my experience Ramos can do without 7+ spiders. 6 at the start of turn 3 is more than enough for common Ramo's tasks. And if before turn 4 my opponent didn't kill even one spider.. so ok, Ramos can still shooting and cast aura. Additional spiders box is good but not necessary =)

As for the rest, he's describe all correct. I can only try to summarize: Colette for fun, Raspy for power =)

[Klat]

Thanks for the advice, I think i will start with Colette, in fact i liked some crews posted by Boomstick and Mrbedlam in the sticky.

One thing, when Cassandra triggers Magician's Prop, the Understudy action costs AP?

[Boomstick]

I'm clearly biased, but excellent choice!

When Understudy comes from the trigger it's free. There's a bit in the rulebook about actions causing actions that covers it(don't have it on me or I'd cite the page). Clasically, Cassandra will saber, trigger understudy to take a silent one's freeze attack, trigger to freeze again, then her second saber with the built in trigger to dance away. It can be intensive if you don't have the right suites in hand, but worth it if you're in need of a big turn either on a single big target or a few with a few wounds hanging on.

If memory serves, @spooky_squirrel has some solid Colette suggestions in the sticky as well.

[Klat]

Ok, i saw that in the rules, but the (1) that i hadn't seen in any other trigger disconcerted me.

[Klat]

Well, I played some games with Colette already, started losing 2 times (Collodi both) but then i won 3 (Pandora, Sonnia and Viks).

Its difficult to play, but I like her, and forced me to learn to play schemes (against the Viks at the end of the second turn i had only Colette and Cassandra alive, but I won 9-3), I'm happy of starting with her.

But Rasputina is coming soon, I already have the Acolytes, Silent Ones and Snowstorm (found a great deal), so I guess I'll pick her next.

[Boomstick]

Sounds fantastic!

Glad to hear Colette is working out for you. I find she's a good bag of tricks to pull out of your own bag of tricks. And she really likes a lot of Raspy's thematic pieces, so Raspy makes sense for a next master. Let us know how the transition goes! 

[mythicFOX]

2 hours ago, Klat said:

Well, I played some games with Colette already, started losing 2 times (Collodi both) but then i won 3 (Pandora, Sonnia and Viks).

Its difficult to play, but I like her, and forced me to learn to play schemes (against the Viks at the end of the second turn i had only Colette and Cassandra alive, but I won 9-3), I'm happy of starting with her.

Well done!

Forcing you to play objectives is actually a great reason to start with Colette.  Gives you a much better grounding in the game than a combat master IMO.