Henchman Hardcore Post-RoF

[retnab]

Hey, so I was wondering if anyone's looked at any of our three new Henchman in the Hardcore format?  I'm thinking bringing Amina with some durable models like Rail Workers or Large Arachnids might be a pain for the opponent to deal with, or Carlos under Firestarter as a Burning loving beater (super up in the air on it, might try Firestarter, Carlos+Protection, Union Miner, Fire Gamin or something).  Has anyone else thought of some fun lists to try?

[spooky_squirrel]

Amina with a single Oxfordian Mage (Doom Ward?), Shastar Vidiya Guard, and a Rail Worker would leave room for an upgrade (Warding Runes?) with some serious tanking potential and a chance for some damage spiking (especially with the ability to pitch cards for the Rail Workers (0)). I know that there are things out there that have a lot more potential in HH than normal 50 stone matches though.

[Bengt]

Wouldn't it be better to have Carlos lead? He is a bit more resilient than Firestarter and one of the objectives is Assassinate, right?

[spooky_squirrel]

15 minutes ago, Bengt said:

Wouldn't it be better to have Carlos lead? He is a bit more resilient than Firestarter and one of the objectives is Assassinate, right?

Firestarter is also cheaper, so you have more wiggle room in your hiring if Carlos takes the lead.

[retnab]

I was thinking with Carlos in the enemy's face it'd be pretty easy to get him killed, where Firestarter can stay way back and still participate.  But otherwise yeah points-wise it makes more sense for Carlos to lead.

[spooky_squirrel]

Carlos certainly looks like he can tank, so long as he isn't running into something that's just plain mean or doesn't care about armor and defenses (i.e. Joss from our own pool). Burning will be nearly useless against him if he's using a Stunt Double--though we all should know that Rail Workers will happily shovel coal on him if his burning gets high enough, Gunsmiths will find themselves dialed on for their shooting, and these are not the only things that will capitalize on burning targets. I think he would pair well with Cassandra (Understudy the pyre marker for additional control?), with her being the go-to beater while he works on staying alive.

The idea I have in mind is along the lines of Carlos, Cassandra, Angelica, Performer; that being said, there's definitely reasons to go other directions, but each of these would play into the control game I'm fond of. Angelica's job would be to push Carlos out of trouble as needed and carry Well Rehearsed. Performer's precious and seduction would provide a pair of bad choices for the opponent: do they kill her and reactivate Cassandra or Carlos, or do they let her live and get seduced just in time for Cassandra to skewer or Carlos to roast them?

[hydranixx]

4 hours ago, spooky_squirrel said:

Carlos certainly looks like he can tank, so long as he isn't running into something that's just plain mean or doesn't care about armor and defenses (i.e. Joss from our own pool). Burning will be nearly useless against him if he's using a Stunt Double--though we all should know that Rail Workers will happily shovel coal on him if his burning gets high enough, Gunsmiths will find themselves dialed on for their shooting, and these are not the only things that will capitalize on burning targets. I think he would pair well with Cassandra (Understudy the pyre marker for additional control?), with her being the go-to beater while he works on staying alive.

I like the idea, but not with a Gunsmith. He's basically a waste of ss outside Ironside lists, and even there, he's probably never as good as Mages are. He's a damaging model, and when you buy a damaging model that has no utility, you want it to be outputting its ss cost in minimum damage each turn past the first. He's outputting only 4 or 6, depending if you want to spend AP and  to give him fast.

Mages on the other hand, are 1ss cheaper and output arguably more damage (Ca vs Sh) with easier triggers ( for everything rather than one trigger per suit) and those triggers either add a bit of utility or even more damage if you pick Burning.

The Railworker though, that could definitely pull it's weight with Carlos. It's cheaper, tankier, and when you get a lucky moderate or severe, hits pretty damn hard too. As you say, Implacable Assault takes them from good to great rather fast, and doesn't require a suit or AP from other models to work.

4 hours ago, spooky_squirrel said:

The idea I have in mind is along the lines of Carlos, Cassandra, Angelica, Performer; that being said, there's definitely reasons to go other directions, but each of these would play into the control game I'm fond of. Angelica's job would be to push Carlos out of trouble as needed and carry Well Rehearsed. Performer's precious and seduction would provide a pair of bad choices for the opponent: do they kill her and reactivate Cassandra or Carlos, or do they let her live and get seduced just in time for Cassandra to skewer or Carlos to roast them?

I am intrigued by this list, but I feel it's too low in the damage spectrum. The Performer adds to the control element as you say, but I still think you want more raw damage for your 5ss investment. You'd keep Carlos safe and sound, but I think you might struggle to kill their Henchman and keep applying the control at the same time. 

On the positive side, I really like to see Angelica in the format!; I think she's absolutely exceptional in HH. Disguised + Automatic pushes on her attacks = gold. That's without even considering the extra things she brings to the table. I made a few filthy, push-centric control lists, looking at The Captain, Angelica and Blessed of December as the core to push and then slow, paralyse or otherwise debilitate their crew.

What I'd love to see is a HH list rocking Cassandra as the leader, with Smoke and Mirrors & Imbued Protection. Everyone focuses on killing the leader in this format, and this would be one of the hardest to actually hit (Df7, Southern Charm, Smoke & Mirrors dash) and has a 5ss cache for prevention on the off chance she is ever hit.

Here's how I'd do it:

Cassandra - Smoke & Mirrors, Imbued Protection.
Angelica
Coryphee
Mannequin

With Charm up, Cass is essentially never losing duels from Charge or Flurry attacks (S&M blink is awesome). If your opponent ever fails to hit her, there's a good chance she will power up Angelica's attacks with the free scheme marker. To further the frustration, Angelica herself and the Coryphee are completely immune to Charges, so your opponent can't really get stuck in on their terms with their heavy hitters. 

The Coryphee and Mannequin are tough nuts to crack. More importantly, they can both hand out Slow up to twice per turn. This is a big deal when you're already invalidating most Charge actions, pushing enemies outside the Turf War area, possibly applying paralyse etc.

You'd need to hold onto every decent  drawn, and try your best to get Slow on any big hitter looking to attack Cassandra. Your opponent will be looking to Focus and attack Cass to get around Charm, so Slow shuts this down quite nicely. Thoughts, @spooky_squirrel?

[spooky_squirrel]

I was trying to think of ways to get at least one Coryphee in. Angelica and Cassandra seem like really solid pieces in HH in general. Even in larger games they always seem to get a lot of work done and present more issues in dealing with than others. As much as I like using The Firestarter to run schemes and Joss to supported construct cores, I know that they've got some weak spots that make them not quite as solid as I might like when they're on their own.

I didn't think about handing out slow and going for paralyze as much when I was pitching the initial idea, but now that you mention it--it can be really good. Slow and paralyze strip already extremely valuable AP from the opposing crew. Killing a henchman is going to be rough if the player wants to make their henchman a brick. I like the idea of simply stepping away from the attack.

There is a potential weakness if you're facing someone like Anna Lovelace, but that's where you'll want Rail Workers attempting to pin her down and hammer her with Implacable Assault, while she stays out of the bubble as much as possible and kills off the support pieces. Similarly any enforcer/henchman that ignores defensive triggers and defensive tricks in general will need to be kept at range, preferably slowed.

 

I mainly mentioned the Gunsmiths as a "hey, you might be facing another Arcanist, so if you're planning on setting yourself on fire, these dudes can shoot you with bullets that ignore Soulstone prevention" thing to think about. It's similar to running Kaeris, Rail Golem, and/or Carlos into Guild in a full game, not knowing if they're going to put Sonnia on the table or not. If you were counting on setting yourself on fire, it just got riskier.

[hydranixx]

Well, yes, Cass would be slightly vulnerable to attacks which ignore defensive triggers, but that still doesn't stop Southern Charm. If I was facing an attack with a built in  to counteract Charm that also ignores defensive triggers, well, I'd then be genuinely impressed! I think Df7 + ss damage prevention is still pretty good though, even then. 

Anna doesn't seem particularly scary, unless I've missed something. She does stop our pushes and places, but we can still push and Slow her, we still get our scheme marker from S&M (I think?) even if Cassandra herself can't be placed (maybe? haven't checked the wording on the upgrade too closely) and we still dodge almost all attacks since Southerm Charm + Df7 is aids. I might have missed something on her card; I haven't played her much yet and when I do I lose in record speed because I'm trash with Ressers anyway. 

Yeah, more and more I'm bringing Angelica and/or Cassandra into many of my 50ss crews. Mobility is just so crucial and no one does it better than these two. 

[Fog]

Honestly, my first HH thought out of the new book was Kudra with the Arcane Effigy.  Four attacks stacking up burning?  That sure sounds fun.

[spooky_squirrel]

4 hours ago, Fog said:

Honestly, my first HH thought out of the new book was Kudra with the Arcane Effigy.  Four attacks stacking up burning?  That sure sounds fun.

And Poison baked in.

If the opposing henchman is not immune to conditions, it's going to have a bad time. She just has to survive the reprisal.