McMourning vs Raputina

[Bramowy]

Hi,

I'll be playing my McMourning against Rasputina in a few days. My opponent keeps yapping how OMFG POWERFUL she is, how she's going to wipe me from the table with ease by casting through ice gamins, how bullet proof she is, how Ice Golem will keep dealing 9 DMG, how Ice Gamins going to crush my by shooting their friends in melee - yada yada yada. It's getting boring.

So please help a scrub out. It's going to be 30 points game, I'm planning to take the good doctor with Moonlightning, Plastic Surgery and evidence tampering. Then Sebastian with Transfusion, Nurse, Rotten Belle and Student of Steel. I know you can't create an all-comer list, it all depends on the scheme and strat etc, but my model pool ain't to big at the moment and can't be to picky. Will that list really going to fold when spells start to fly ? Is going for Raspy early a viable tactic ? 

Any advice from seasoned players will be very appreciated.

[huntroll]

30 SS is horribly unbalanced, if she manages to catch your crew with a blast and kill a few of your models, it's basically done. On the other hand if you get close to her and start creating Canine Remains/Flesh Constructs, it's done for your opponent.

McMourning is a good pick against Arcanists in general, the only thing to watch out for are Performers blowing up your models pumped up with poison, but that's unlikely if your opponent only has Raspy. 

The most important thing against her is the terrain setup, make sure you have a lot of LoS blocking terrain and cover so you can advance easily without getting blasted to death. Also other than setting up your first poison bomb on turn one (friendly model moves 8", Nurse charges it for 8 poison, Chihuahua moves within 2" of it for 2 more, in an ideal situation all of it happens out of LoS) you really shouldn't bunch up your models and you should aim to get in her face as soon as possible. Because of that I think you don't need a Belle in this matchup, and the Student with its pathetic Wk4 and horrible defensive stats won't do too much. It's ability to shut down triggers can be nice, but you can live without it, especially in a 30SS game (at higher point games you can take the Valedictorian, she is also good for hunting down Acolytes etc). I'd rather take Rafkin, the Zombie Chihuahua and a Canine Remains instead of them. Rafkin  makes an excellent Poison bomb carrier and can charge poisoned models for (1), so you can keep him out of LoS, poison a bunch of enemies by moving the Chihuahua next to them, then activate Rafkin, walk and Charge. It's just lovely. And his aura is also helpful. The Canine Remains can also do this, and he can engage Rasputinas crew quickly. My list would look something like this:

McMourning -- 6ss
 +Moonlighting - 1ss
 +Plastic Surgery - 1ss

Zombie Chihuahua - 2ss

Canine Remains - 4ss

Nurse - 5ss

Rafkin - 7ss

Sebastian - 7ss
 +Transfusion - 1ss
 

[Fetid Strumpet]

As mentioned, as you go lower in SS the more wildly swingy the game gets. Get a Killy model doing their thing early and on the right target, game over pretty much from turn 1/2 onwards. Conversely actually get a summoner engine going against a crew that can't deal with it after taking out their counter piece and it can also be game over. The fewer tools you have to start the game with the more critical every one of those tools is to winning the game, and the game state can just get steamrolled really fast either direction.

As for anti raspy tech. #1 rule about playing against a good raspy player, NEVER LET YOUR MODELS END IN BASE CONTACT WITH FROZEN HEART MODELS! Raspy is a great damage dealer, but her best flexibility is also in the ability to paralyze your models. Her paralyze attack can be launched via her Frozen Mirror ability through her frozen heart models, which is bad enough, but the rub is that if you are in base contact with one of her frozen heart models she won't cast through her frozen heart model, she'll cast at them. It actually makes it easier to paralyze your model because when she casts into that combat she'll have to randomize certainly, if she hits you you'll have to win the duel to remain active, which is fine, but if she hits her own model its worse for you. She'll just auto-tie the result, her model and every model in base contact with it will be paralyzed (and the models in base contact don't get a chance to resist), except oops, her model is immune to paralyze. So you get paralyzed without resisting, and her model suffers nothing. At least if you aren't in base contact and she randomizes onto her model nothing bad happens to you.

Second, look at her card and look at the maximum number of blasts she can do. Grab that many 50mm bases and put them together, and actually look at how much room on the table that takes up. Do your best to keep your models just slightly more than that far apart from each other. Raspy is a solid dmg dealer, but she is much more manageable if you prevent her from getting AP efficiency by forcing her damage to only hit one of your models instead of 2+.

Third, make sure you check her upgrades before you start playing, both to understand what they do, but to also make certain she doesn't make a common new player mistake, and that is taking both limited upgrades. A limited upgrade tends to be more powerful and master defining upgrades. They are limited because a model can only have a single limited upgrade. Its a fairly common new player mistake to overlook that and take both. The amount of times I've had to tell new Seamus players, no, you can't have both the bag and sinister reputation boggles the mind. That's important in Raspy's case because she has 2 that are VERY good. Shattered mirror lets her use her triggers when using December's curse through her Ice Mirror ability. That can put you in for a world of hurt. The other is Armor of December, the push and armor upgrade.

She. Cannot. Take. Both. 

So make sure you check and correct that mistake if it occurs. Additionally knowing the limited upgrade she takes will tell you how to deal with her.

If she takes Shattered Mirror it is imperative you get something into melee with her, and keep it there. If it dies get something else in there. She can't use her  spells while she is engaged in combat, and while she can still do some dmg, it is MUCH less efficient that using December's Curse. The Shattered Mirror upgrade is a Rapsy build that goes all in on massive ranged dmg as soon and fast as possible, so countering it is pretty good.

Armor of December tends to be the slightly more popular one, because it trades overwhelming ranged power for some defense, and the ability to counter Raspy's biggest weakness, getting locked in Ml combat. If she takes the Armor, its still a good idea to get her locked in ML, but the calculus changes. Whatever you send in is likely going to die, unless it's a master, and even then it can be dicey. You get her locked in combat, she uses a (1) action to push out of combat (it's a push, so no disengaging strikes to keep her there) then she lights you up with December's Curse, with the Overpower Trigger. The thing to keep in mind is that if she targets the model you sent in, you are getting to determine who she is going up against, which helps force her target selection. Additionally really keep an eye on the terrain and try to force her into it, or take advantage of it to limit her vectors of escape. If you can pin her so she can't push anywhere out of Melee, she still might get the armor, but she won't be destroying your crew with her curse.

Really focus on your schemes and the strat and don't get caught up in spending a whole heap of AP neutralizing her at the expense of gaining VP. Remember killing your model's objective is reducing their board presence and AP. If you use your whole crew dealing with her, she wins that trade even if she never kills one of your models because of the amount of AP you are spending dealing with her, instead of gaining VP.

Don't worry about the Ice Golem. While it's smash attack looks frightening, it suffers the same massive problem that all once a turn abilities have (remember its a (3) action, so it can only take that action if it does nothing else, and only once a turn) and that is, you know it's coming, and there is no ability to do it again that turn. If you need to operate near the golem's melee range, and it will get a chance to take a smash swing, make sure you keep a card in hand that guarantees you can succeed, or just don't operate in it's Ml range. Statistically its a better deal for the Golem to take 3 attacks at you anyway than to go all in on smash.

Crew Wise I might do something like this:

Resurrectionists - 30ss Crew

McMourning -- 6SS Cache
+Plastic Surgery - 1ss
+Moonlighting - 1ss

• Zombie Chihuahua - 2ss
• Bete Noir - 8ss
• Crooligan - 4ss
• Rotten Belle - 5ss
• Sebastian - 7ss

Not the best list, but could be effective. Start Bete on the board for her Tenebrous Aura.

[Bramowy]

Thank you all for answers.

I have to admit that the picture painted for me is rather bleak. Trying to fight the her minions in melee as I first planned appears to be a suicide. I most probably won't be able to engage all three gamins at once. It will take just one free minion for Raspy to knock out or paralyse any of my models that will try to tie them up in combat with. Can't win here unless they separate. Seems the only way would be to run McMourning fully loaded with poison together with Sebastian into her face and pray that she won't blast me apart before I unload the bomb into her. Or, failing that, keep something engaging her all the time. Hopefully McMourning is fast enough to get to her on turn 2 after she moves. Even if I manage to close the distance she might still be able to waste McMourning, especially since there is no way for Sebastian to keep up with his master. All that makes me rather sad.

Being a newish player I am still afraid to try to ignore enemy models and go after VPs. That would probably have some chances of success against pure melee oriented crew, but Raspy can just park herself somwhere in the middle of the board and cast spells through gamins. With 22'' range my models will start to melt fast. 

I can replace crooligan with necropunk, but have no access to Bete. My only possible heavy hitters are the zombies from University of Transmortis, but as huntroll mentioned most of them are to slow. Are you sure I should not take a Nurse ? She gives me a nice shot of poison early on and generaly can speed everyone up. 

I was briefly thinking about going with Seamus and just shoot Raspy dead, but his fear/heal mechanic will just not work here. He will probably teleport, shoot her, deal some dmg and die next turn to a massed ice bombing.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Few things. You absolutely can take her minions on in melee. In fact if you are playing ressers you basically have to.

The list I provided was just a quick thought except use. I normally play Seamus and Molly almost exclusively. And yes you absolutely can take Raspy on with Seamus. I think you have some fundamental misunderstanding of how his rules work. His heal mechanic works just fine against her. The only thing that is turned off is Terror, which is a weak mechanic to rely on in any sense, and Paralyzing. Seamus heals just fine when they fail wp duels like lure, undress, gnawing fear, take your meds, take the lead and so on.

The danger with Seamus in that match up is first if you tried to build a terror list. Relying on terror is a bad idea to build for because you have no control of actually for on the ability through. Having a list full of incidental terror is awesome, building models whose only synergy is terror as asking for you opponent to beat you like a tent spike.

The biggest danger of raspy vs Seamus isn't his heal mechanic, it's  raspy's paralyze. Seamus can't get hit with it incidentally, but if she targets him directly its Ca 7 vs df 4. And then she either keeps you paralyzed forever or sends the wendigo in and eats him. I've had it happen to me. But you absolutely can take her on with Seamus. Know what Seamus loves, low df, non ss using models. Know what a Raspy crew from the box is full of? Low df non SS users.

[hydranixx]

1 hour ago, Bramowy said:

I was briefly thinking about going with Seamus and just shoot Raspy dead, but his fear/heal mechanic will just not work here. He will probably teleport, shoot her, deal some dmg and die next turn to a massed ice bombing.

I'm not proficient with Ressers, but I would think that Seamus can simply one-shot her Gamins. If you can limit her Ice Mirrors, she's much weaker. Her Wk is literally 3", so you can easily reduce her avenues of attack and her range. I think his mobility and his gun are enough to work with, honestly. Keep him cheap and cheerful and he'll probably serve you perfectly well.

Seamus' .50 damage track is insane, and should be consistently able to kill a Gamin each turn, and then he can re-position to kill the next one in the following turn. If you take Mad Haberdasher, he's going to ignore one big hit at least once per game, which is even more important in low ss games. Especially if your opponent is somewhat new, I bet once you blow away a Gamin in one shot, he's going to desperately want Raspy wants to kill Seamus, while the rest of your list can go about doing their thing.

Just food for thought.

[Clockwork_Fish]

One thing I'd mention is that a lot of her crew has low Willpower, likely to counterbalance with Frozen Heart.  Ice Gamin, Silent Ones and the Wendigo are Wp 4.  Even the Ice Golem and Snow Storm are only Wp 5.  You may not be able to paralyze any of them, but you can still shut them down with a Nurse.

And I'd definitely add Necropunks to your list if you can.  I killed Rasputina with Gupps once, I'd imagine it would work about the same.

[unti]

I think Night Terrors are the answere to raspy. They are cheap and fast. So you can engage her with hard to kill, incorporeal models. And they have a 1 action to reduce her castingrange by 4", if i remember correctly. 

[Bramowy]

Wow, now that's a lot of quality information ! And friendly community, too.

I was aware that playing guerilla style warfare with Seamus might take me far, as it did ine the past. There is no doubt that he can easily kill a gamin with 1 Sh attack. The hard part is not getting killed/perma paralysed afterwards. If I was in Raspy shoes I would gladly allow Seamus to .50 cal my gamin so I could move another mirrored model and paralyse him afterwards. Red Chapel Killer won't work here, as gamins and Ice Golem are constructs. 

Still, it may just work. With Belles supporting him, luring everyone into cold embrace, handing out slow, Seamus and Copycat shooting what's left.........Just need to work on my model placement, calculate when to punce and add a cheap scheme runner.

The game(s) is scheduled for Sunday. I will let you guys know how it went. Most probably I'll get my teeth kicked in due to lack of thinking ahead and forgetting about VP's, but that's the FUN! part of learning  

[danp164]

Also bare in mind when you take plastic surgery on McMourning it will make nearby ice constructs undead, allowing the abra cadaver trigger to go off from expunge, nothing better than turning an ice golem into a flesh construct,or an ice gamin for that matter, raspy is one match up where the nurses aren't THAT good as the paralyze trigger will be a bust against all that frozen heart.

[Bramowy]

Right, I promised to tell everyone how it went.

Well, good news and bad news. Bad news is that we agreed to play really small game: 20 SS with Henchmen leading the crews. No point starting big, as we are still learning. I brought Madame Sybelle,  3 Belle's and undead dog. My friend fielded group of Nephilims. It consisted of Scion of Black Blood, Terror Tot, Barbaros (leader) and Young Nephilim. We took Reconnoiter for a strategy, Breakthrough and Line in the sand as schemes. The good news is that I have read everything you guys posted, learned from it and managed to put some of it to use.

I have played belles before, but it was the very first time when I took my time to actually think before moving and use synergies. Between lures, bonus to Wk from Madame Sybelle and Call Belle all the ladies got catapulted  towards the centerline, which gave me a significant advantage for the rest of the game. My opponent relocated his Terror Tot from my left to right flank (this thing is FAST!!!) after noticing that he won't be able to run by 2 Belles without ending up outside the range of Lure. He also moved Young Nephilim on the right flank, preparing to attack my Canine Remains, who held this side of the table. Scion and Barbaros took position in the center. By the end of 2nd turn I had all the markers set for LITS. This costed me a point for strategy as some of the belles were within 6'' of the center zone. It got me worried at first, as I again forgot about all those silly little details in schemes and strategies that make very big difference and usually costed me most of the few games I played so far. Still 1 point is not much of a difference.  3rd turn saw the demise of Canine Remains, which got eaten by Young Nephilim. Together with Terror Tot they had my right side open, ripe for planting markers for LITS and Breakthrough. On the left one of the Belle's managed to run towards enemy deployment zone and planted a marker for Breakthrough. The other one on my left got charged by Barbaros and started to get whacked hard. Yet I had to keep her there for some time and possibly let her die, for as long as she was there the markers for LITS were safe. Madame charged Scion and started to hit him, dealing pathetic 2 dmg with every hit despite me using soulstone once. On the good side she made Scion Insignificant. Last Belle moved towards right side, threatening to spoil most of which Young Nephilim and Terror Tot achieved. At the end of the turn I got a point for a strategy, yay ! My opponent got nothing, as he only held one quarter of the table. Next turn started, I lost initiative, didn't get any card higher than 9. Barbaros kept hitting the poor Belle. When he was done she was standing on 2 HP left, but she was holding. I have only repositioned her a bit. Didn't want to take an attack action, since getting Black Blooded standing on 2 HP didn't seem as a good thing to do. Madame Sybelle kept hitting Scion, missing with first attack and hitting with second.......again for a meager 2 HP. As her last (0) action I Called Belle and teleported the one who put a marker for a Breakthrough. I hoped she will help me finish Scion sooner, but her attacks were pathetic and costed me more HP lost from Black Blood than taken as a result of attacks. Scion tried to retaliate against Madame Sybelle, failed a terror roll and ended up paralysed. Belle who was supposed to interfere on my right flank did well, as she moved forward and removed one enemy marker from the middle line. Terror Tot and Young Nephilim were generally busy with planting markers near my deployment zone and positioning themselves to grab table quarters. He has forgotten about something, which resulted in not getting point for strategy. Can't remember what it was, probably placed the Terror Tot on the line between table quarters. Next turn started, my hand was pathetic again, lost initiative despite spending SS and prepared to say good bye to the belle engaged by Barbaros. She was left on 2 HP, so I didn't even bother to cheat when the enemy henchmen activated. Barbaros took focus, got a straight flip........and flipped Black Joker for all his trouble  Now that was really lucky for me, but I stil don't understand why my opponent took focus. He could easily 1 shot the belle, then nimble forward and remove one of my LITS marker. Or just take a second attack. Well, seems I am not the only one who makes mistakes. Anyway Madame finally managed to finish the Scion off, then called the Belle which fought Barbaros. The other one, which was helping her fighting Scion run off again and placed another marker for Breakthrough. Belle on the right hand side put scheme marker on the center line and failed luring Young Nephilim to her table quarter to deny him scoring for strategy. On the last turn (failed initiative again) Barbaros removed one of my LITS marker and placed his own. Everything was now depending if at least one of my Belles manage to Slow Terror Tot or Young Nephilim. I have obviously failed both duels, they managed to run towards the center and put their own markers for LITS.

The game ended as a tie ! I have to admit I am very happy with the result and my general  gameplay. Finally I have managed to shake off the ' jump all your models on their models and kill them all' way of thinking and focused on VP's. Despite that it was very close and could easily swing into one way or another. I am very happy with the general playing  experience. Next time we bring masters, bigger crews and no upgrades. 

Thanks for all the advices, and seriously, I congratulate everyone who actually managed to read through all that !