for Seamus...

[TeddyBear]

Hi guys! i'm newby with resurrectionists,

for a Malifaux 2E tournament (50 points) and also generally  what would be a good list for Seamus (which is also competitive?)       

Actually i have:

 

Seamus box

Dead doxies (2)

Hanged (2)

Bete noir

 

How do you generally use it?

Should i probably add Carrion Effigy (to remove immunities)?

Thanks and sorry for as i write

Edited June 7, 2016 by TeddyBear
writing mistake

[Fetid Strumpet]

Welcome to Malifaux!

 I'm fairly adept at using Seamus, so I have to ask to begin with, what are you hoping to achieve with the advice given? The reason I ask is that Malifaux isn't like other games where you tend to have set lists for masters. There are differing schools of thought, but generally all comers lists don't work well unless you have tailored them to a fine point for your personal individual play style over a good course of play. So do you happen to know what strats and schemes will be in use at the upcoming tournament you mentioned? I can give detailed advice at that point, or I can give you a general list that I'm currently playing around with. A key feature to clarify up front is that Malifaux really is, for the most part, a game that really rewards experience and the mind behind the game rather than the "list". It is very possible for you to have a killer net list and be totally rocked by someone using a lesser perceived tier master with a list that makes no sense to you but that they have honed to a razor.

So with that said here are my personal opinions about the models you have mentioned, which isn't to say they are definitive, just that they are what I have experienced. You should therefore take any of the following with a grain of salt and make up your own mind about them, ultimately.

Carrion Effigy: Pretty much worthless if you are hiring him in order to remove Immunities. Activation Order, Range, Positioning, and the actual effects worth you get out of it, even if everything works the way you hope (which is unlikely) mean that this ability is worth about as much as the gum stuck to the underside of a restaurant table. Now, that said, there are reasons to bring him, in the right builds. He is above average in the amount of AP required to remove him for his SS cost, and he is of average speed, so he can be a slower but resilient scheme runner. The reason besides that to bring him is his Horrific Feast Ability, which allows you to hit a nearby master within 8" with the ability to discard a nearby corpse or card at the start of their activation for a minor heal. This can be useful for Seamus, but if you play Seamus like most people do he often won't be in range to use this ability. Due to the fact that Seamus will be popping up all over the place, and generally doesn't wan't to have friendly models nearby, to prevent Seamus from potentially randomizing his one shot a turn onto his own models. So I'd only consider him in a Seamus list focused on using the Bag of Tools, which didn't intend to jump around as much. Of the Resser Masters Tara, Molly, and McMorning are the only ones I've found much use for the Effigy in, due to the fact that they generally don't care about corpses, and aren't always moving too fast for the Effigy to keep up with.

Bete Noir: You are going to get mixed opinions on her. Some people like to take her and use Seamus to jump in on turn one, focus shoot and enemy model, kill it, and pop bete pops out nearby the enemy crew. I used her quite a bit when only the 1st M2E book was out, but over time, outside of Tara crews, I don't think she is worth her cost. I don't like starting with such an expensive model buried, as I want Seamus to be able to strike on the first turn without giving the enemy much chance to respond, and I also want to draw out their cards so that his one shot actually has a better chance to connect. Bete is counter synergistic to that. Additionally I really dislike how she essentially forces you to play with one good card down in your hand, as you need to hang on to a 10+ at all times if you want her to be mostly certain (barring a black Joker flip) of coming back and thus not being horribly overpriced for what she does. I'd recommend if you like her to try her and see what you think, but I'd consider her a never take with Seamus. The Hand tax, the activation Tax, and the fact that she has no actions that target WP at all mean she just doesn't do enough I feel.

The Hanged: Another controversial model. Opponents hate facing this model, and there are some people that in their meta seem to make the Hanged work well with him. My opinion is that generally, he's not a good hire for Seamus at all. The lists that work with the Hanged are too gimmicky, require too much luck in hoping the opponent actually brings a crew that cares about your list, and require the enemy is too inexperienced with the Hanged to know how easy the list is to pick apart. That isn't to say the Hanged aren't good, they are, but as a general rule, in my opinion, they are much better summons, and as Seamus can't summon them they don't tend to find their way into my lists. Now there is an exception. If you know you are facing a master that relies on healing in some manner in order to stay alive, then they can be useful models to have around. So if you happen to know the master you are facing, or if you are facing Ressers (as almost all of their masters' resilience comes at least partially from healing) then, and only then would I consider bringing a Hanged along. They are just too expensive for what they do. Their Best and most feared ability gets worse the fewer wounds an enemy has, so they are not consistent damage dealers, and they aren't good finishers. If you have an enemy that has 12 wounds the first hit will do 6, the second will do 3, the third will 2, and the fourth will finally kill by doing 1, so basically your model doesn't have better than a dmg 3 attack with no possibility of getting a lucky spike dmg due to moderate or severe. And its worse if you are trying to use your model to kill weaker models. A Model with 4 wounds still requires 3 successful casts of that spell to kill it. And if the enemy isn't relying on heals in anyway then the condition which prevents heals doesn't do anything. Additionally the fact that they don't have any way to get additional movement means that they are just too easily predicted and countered by the enemy, and the enemy WILL focus on killing this immediately if it at all can screw up their plans, and it's resilience for a 9SS model which will attract a great deal of hostile attention just isn't high enough, in my opinion. 

Now, if you are playing against Ressers I'd almost always at least consider one. If they don't bring Chiaki or Johan as part of their crew a Hanged can make their master fold up and go home very rapidly, which is why as soon as my opponent declares Ressers Chiaki almost ALWAYS jumps into my list just on the off chance they bring a Hanged. Seamus NEEDS his heals to have any kind of resiliency, so watch out for these things if your opponent declares ressers.

Dead Doxy: Very good model to have for Seamus. That said I rarely hire them with Seamus. They have some issues that are counter synergistic for a hired model (as Summons I do summon them about 50% of the time, so it's worth owning them). The biggest is that their take the lead ability requires a 7+ in order for it to go off. Consider that if you are planning to use Back Ally on the first turn you already require a 7+ to make the spell work, you need a very high card to help ensure Seamus' one shot actually connects (and remember a smart opponent knows Seamus only gets one shot a turn, they know it will be coming, and so will almost certainly be hanging on to their best card to prevent that shot from landing, so you need your best card for this) and you potentially need a second high card to cheat dmg in, so that's already half your hand accounted for and required to be at 7+, every TN you intend to use to make a model worthwhile for their cost past that puts even more strain on your hand, and at 6 points, if the Doxy isn't using Take the lead every turn successfully, you might as well have hired a different model, in my opinion. 

Now that said, there are three models that combo well with her, and if any of the three are in your crew it can be a good idea to bring one along at the start of the game.

1) Philip and the Nanny: If you are using Philip and the Nanny as your Scheme Runner/Scheme Hunter/ Card engine, then 1 Doxy is almost auto include. The Doxy has the potential to drop 2 markers on turn 1 due to starting in one position, using take the lead to move more, and then dropping the second marker so that Philip can eat both on Turn 1. Additionally the ability to Push Philip and the Nanny in any direction, and getting the additional 2" movement from Philip's ability means that Philip can be surprisingly fast with one of these things moving him about.

2) The Carrion Emissary, with the Carrion Conflux upgrade: These two combo well together because not only do you have the potential to have better control over your opponent's models via Take the Lead and the Shards of Nythera, but if the Doxy operates within 4" of the emissary she can get a positive flip on the casting flip for using Take the lead, which means statistically you should be generally making the flip without requiring a card to cheat from hand, which means moving your own crew around becomes much easier, and if generally can help put pressure on the enemy's hand by giving you better odds of not only succeeding the TN, but generally helping give you the odds to force them to choose to cheat first or not.

3) Yin: Yin is a great model with Seamus, who also combos well with many of the Models Seamus likes to bring. The biggest issue I have with her is the first turn. Her walk of 4 is very difficult to get past, and in my crews I want them to be doing effective things from turn one. Double walking her and still potentially not being in range to use a gnawing fear on an enemy always makes the first turn a little too stale for her in my opinion. Doxy's can remedy that by giving Yin that extra 4" push that puts the Gnawing Fear threat range at around 20" from turn one.

4) Addendum (Belle Bombs): One or two can also be useful if you are planning on running Belle heavy and intend to attempt to make use of Pounce in a heavy way. Be wary that there are ALOT of crews that just incidentally can drive this kind of list crazy. Models with Black Blood, or any ability that causes them to explode on death, or crews full of damaging Auras, or pulses, or the ability to her good blasts off can rip a Dedicated Belle Bomb apart very rapidly.

 

Now, if you are limited by what you currently own and want the best, generalist list I can think of with such, I'd probably do something Like:

Resurrectionists - 50ss Crew

Seamus -- 6SS Cache
+Unnerving Aura - 1ss
+Decaying Aura - 2ss
+Bag O' Tools - 1ss

• Copycat Killer - 3ss
• Dead Doxy - 6ss
• Madame Sybelle - 8ss
  +Unnerving Aura - 1ss
  +Bleeding Tongue - 1ss
• Rotten Belle - 5ss
• Rotten Belle - 5ss
• Rotten Belle - 5ss
• The Hanged - 9ss

Be aware that this list has a lot of hard counters, and even if it does work, it will most often not be a fun experience for the opponent.

 

As for expanding your collection I'd recommend the following in the following order of Importance: Nurse, Yin, Chiaki, Carrion Emissary, Jaakuna Ubume, Necro Punk, Philip and the Nanny, Crooligans.

If you listen to podcasts I'd recommend Schemes and Stones as it is a very good general look at the masters in the game, (Disclosure I covered Seamus with the host a number of months back). One of the better players in the UK, Joel Henry, also just started playing Seamus and his blog has a post using a list he designed. The post title is To Be Sure. You can also see one of Cheated Fates Joe's lists on the Cheated Fates blog from around January. Additionally searching through this forum will give you other player's perspectives on Seamus, as while I am very opinionated and very vocal, on these boards, in any thread covering Seamus, my opinion isn't a definitive view, and others perspectives might more closely align with your experience than mine does.

In closing, I would personally say the best piece of advice, beyond playing every model you can think of and making up your own mind about it, would be to get 1 Nurse as soon as possible. I've never regretted taking one in a Seamus list.

Welcome to Malifaux, I hope this post was somewhat useful to you!

[TeddyBear]

Thanks a lot for your advice!!

I was thinking about Carrion Effigy because when i play against Rasputina, for example,  always pain (for me )

What are the belle bomb? How can i use it?

How does it work synergy of nurses with rest of crew? I think that nurse is a model to use it at distance.. looks like fragile in melee.. and i find paralayze ability, only very useful, even if the target heals all damage.. but the rest?

Unfortunatly at moment i don't know what does the Carrion Emissary doing? (i don't have book with it)

 

Anyhow thanks a lot for help, any advices are welcome for a begginer like me

 

I just hope to be able to make me understand for as i write.. sorry for mistakes

 

[Fetid Strumpet]

No problem. In answer to your questions:

1) A Belle Bomb is what I call a crew build that looks to maximize AP efficiency by utilizing a number of Belles and the Ability Pounce. Basically you hire 3 or more belles, a combination of rotten and doxies, and position them in a cluster. You lure a target into the cluster and trigger multiple Pounce attacks, then companion another belle, and lure the target over to her, again triggering multiple pounce attacks. It can be effective, but there are a lot of issues with it.

2) Nurses are amazing with Seamus. First of all the heal/paralyze is  amazing for the enemy and your crew. If you need a model to stay alive it might not matter that you've paralyzed it. Additionally keeping an enemy locked down means you don't actually need to kill it. She also can pseudo paralyze as well. For example let's imagine Howard Langston is comming for you, but you don't have or perhaps don't want to use a crow. You have the other abilities to play with as well. You could hit him with the condition that gives additional movement, but prevents anything but walk and interact actions. Now Howard might be really quick, but he can't bring his scary claws to bear anymore. An enemy scheme runner looks to be getting past you? Hit it with hallucinogens and give it +2 dmg to its ml attacks at the cost of only being able to do ml attacks. Since its most likely not good at hitting and probably not in b2b with any of your models that's an effective paralyze.

I like her with Seamus because she can also be used very effectively on your own crew. If you are using sinister reputation Seamus can still be helping your crew even if you paralyze him to keep him alive. You can use hallucinogens with Seamus to turn him into a melee beast. Move you nurse into range, and cast hallucinogens on Seamus, then use accomplice to let Seamus activate immediately. If you don't have the bag she turns his back hand into a ml7 3/3/5 attack with a trigger to take the attack again. That means with luck you could make 6 attacks all with min dmg 3. If you have the bag it's a ml7 4/6/7 attack with a mess of useful triggers. The biggest downside being that you can't take a 0 action or do anything but ml attack if you do this, but it can surprise people who dont expect Seamus to be a threat in ml. That trigger can also assist a belle bomb. Hit a belle with it that doesn't need to lure that turn, or that has already activated to up its dmg for pounce attacks that get triggered near her. Hit an enemy with the one that gives negatives to all duels but gives them additional armor to effect them with things that don't do dmg, like slow, paralyze, and gnawing fear. If your doing belle bombs that can work as well since your dmg is generally going to be one anyway. You trade potential spike dmg from a lucky moderate or severe dmg for almost certainly hitting with every pounce attack you shed their way. And if she has nothing better to do she can still do scheme running near your crew. Nurses are great.

3) The Emissary is in Shifting Loyalties. It's a 10ss 50mm model. It has a good ca attack with min dmg 3 and blasts. It can target a corpse marker and turn it into a scheme marker. It can, through some hoops and surviving long enough, summon a full health resser undead minion of 6ss or less on turn 4. It has an aura like madam Sybelle's that gives +1 walk to any friendly model that activates in the aura (yes that means a belle that activates in both auras gets boosted to walk 7, I call them Rocket Belles). It's signature ability though is shards of kythera. It's a 0 action that basically is like Rasputina's Ice pillars, except they go away at the end of the turn and pop out a mindless zombie when they go. The emissary also has a number of 0 ss cost upgrades that are limited by which master you are using. There is a general one that gives the emissary an aura that gives minions attacks in the aura a positive flip (like lure, undress, take the lead, etc...). Seamus' upgrade for the emissary gives it a 4" ability like seamus' so that whenever an enemy fails a wp duel in range the emissary heals 1. It also gives it another movement 0 action, but you'll rarely use it because it competes with the shards. Very interesting model.

4) the effigy won't help you much against raspy. First of all let's explore best case scenario for you. You get the effigy to work and it's in range to strip horror immunity and paralyze immunity off raspy's models. So you maybe force 1 or two models to actually take and care about a horror check... Which they then generally pass by flipping te card about 50% or more of the time, or possibly get them to lose a 7+ from their hand, if you're lucky. Enemy models rarely fail terror checks in crews that don't have immunity to such, and the models that are immune to it aren't generally worse at passing then if they are forced to take them. So you don't actually get much out of him even if he actually ever works. Additionally it's an aura with a 5" range. So even assuming they might not want to take the duel, they could just exit the aura and go about their day. The best combo with him is basically the nurse again, or any model that can relatively easily cause paralyze. You walk the effigy into range and toss up diminished resistance, than accomplice the model with the ability to give out paralyze (assuming they are in range) and attempt (note the word attempt) to give the model in range paralyze. The issue with all of this is the investment and costs to actually get this to work. You have to hire the effigy, and a model that can cause paralyze and or has horror duels, you have to activate the models in the proper order, you have to be in range and Los within 5" of the model you want to affect, the effigy has to still be alive and in Los when the enemy is forced to take the test, or when your model tries to paralyze, and even after all that it doesn't actually help you force through any of those things you want to have happen. So you've spend a lot of ss, ap, positioning, activation order restrictions, and basically might and probably will get nothing at all out of it, and even if you do rarely will it be worth everything you did to make it happen except in niche situations. I'd personally say NEVER EVER take te effigy because you want his ability to strip immunities. Pretend at hireing that that ability doesn't exist, and hire him only based on his other abilities and stats. In the game only ever use that ability if you have nothing better to do with him, or you absolutely need to try it or you'll lose. Only at those times is that ability worth anything in my opinion.

[TeddyBear]

Thanks again!! In few days i add 2 nurses on my crew and Yin money permitting, obviously !! one last question (then i don't annoy you again ) What do you think about crooligans in Seamus crew for some schemes? I read their stats cards and i think maybe they are best scheme runners for resurrectionist...

 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Again, I stress this is my personal opinion.

I don't like Crooligan's scheme runners for Seamus. Additionally if you are looking for purely the best scheme runner I would say the it's the Necropunk.

Let me clarify. For Seamus Crooligan's, generally, don't do much. The creepy aura looks ok on paper, and there might be some kind of game with with a bag oriented Seamus crew, (remember the bag is a limited upgrade, so if you bring it you can't bring sinister reputation) but it can be anti synergistic. They, themselves don't have any way to cause a wp duel. Try also have to be close to a model to cause it, and  Seamus himself doesn't want models close to his other models because he would then need to randomize if he shoots at them. Which is why the bag might have better play with them.

First reason I don't like Crooligans, you cannot use them to drop a scheme marker on turn 1. Their ability to allow them to deploy forward just flat out prevents scheme dropping on turn one. That's an issue because there are many uses for scheme markers I. Your back field with Ressers. Eat them with Philip and the nanny, or have jump points for Seamus if you have red chapel killer. They also can't drop 2 markers a turn, which is a big thing you often want a specific scheme runner to do. If you take advantage of the from the shadows ability you basically trade the double walk you'd have done on the first turn, which would allow you more room to adjust to your opponent's plan, for being closer and doing...what?

Dont get me wrong I do like Crooligans but I think their value as scheme runners is overstated.

Necro punks by contrast are generally ultimately tougher, harder to lock in combat, and can drop 2 markers a turn as opposed to 1. 

In either case I, personally, as a general rule with Seamus don't tend bring dedicated scheme runners. My lists tend to have a good percentage of support models (Belles, Nurses, sometimes Chiaki) and once some of the other required models are added I don't have room for a dedicated scheme runner. I tend to get around that by just using my support models as runners as well. If the nurse doesn't have anything better to do at that moment she can drop a marker. And with Sybelle or the emissary (or both) in the crew it boosts your belles to walk 6 or 7 so they can serve very well at that purpose. Doxies can also drop 2 markers a turn with the right positioning and utilizing take the lead.

There are a number of people who swear by Crooligans in every crew so again I'd try them yourself to decide what you think.

[TeddyBear]

Generally do you hire belle and doxies or summon them in your usual lists?

Double suit with 3 soulstone pool, it seems too risky not to deploy anything of them..

Sorry again for my terrible English

[Fetid Strumpet]

Typically I do both. Doxies don't tend to get hired all that often in my lists, with Seamus anyway, as outside of specific builds I don't think they bring much to him to start the game. I do try to summon during the game, but I often find that I'm using the Red Chapel Killer's 0 action to get the No Eyes on Me condition to Jump Seamus around. I generally want Seamus around the edges of the main engagement picking off whatever I can that will die that turn. So his biggest targets tend to be Scheme Runners, or high value targets with Low Df. Getting tangled in the middle with Seamus means that he can't use his gun either because he is engaged, or another of his models is, because he really doesn't want to randomize his once per turn attack on one of his own models. That changes in certain builds, like if I bring Philip and the Nanny, in which case one is almost de rigueur to bring one along. For example this is a list I was working with for a little while:

Resurrectionists - 50ss Crew

Seamus -- 5SS Cache
+Sinister Reputation - 1ss
+Red Chapel Killer - 1ss
+Mad Haberdasher - 2ss

• Copycat Killer - 3ss
• Datsue Ba - 8ss
  +Spirit Whispers - 1ss
• Madame Sybelle - 8ss
  +Not Too Banged Up - 1ss
• Nurse - 5ss
• Rotten Belle - 5ss
• Rotten Belle - 5ss
• Yin The Penangalan - 8ss
  

Not the best list, but I had fun with it for a while. Little too low on starting SS pool for my taste as I generally like to take 6 to 7 with Seamus.

[TeddyBear]

Thanks for your all helpful advices!

I think that this can be an excellent guide for all those want starting play with Seamus Crew!

I will follow what have you written to me, and maybe try both game configurations..

Thanks

 

Andrea

[Fetid Strumpet]

You're welcome. Just make sure you do try all the models you have interest in, even if I've posted that I don't think they're very good. All metas, players, and playgroups are different. You might find out that for you a model I vociferously argue is worthless is solid gold for you.

Good Luck.

[Franchute]

17 hours ago, TeddyBear said:

 

I think that this can be an excellent guide for all those want starting play with Seamus Crew

I like the way @Fetid Strumpet discusses the several schools of thought. He should write a Seamus guide for all those interested in him. That would be great 

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'll probably get around to it at some point.

[godswearhats]

Or you can listen to him talk about it on Schemes and Stones.