2E starter set crew imbalance?

[Baddaysbasil]

Hey all- just to set things up before asking the question:

My gal and I recently got the 2E starter box with the Angel Eyes and Dr. Grimwell crews.  We've played 4 out of the 5 scenarios included in the quickstart rules exactly as described, and Angel Eyes's crew has won all 4 very handily.    

While I know that neither of the crews are meant to be permanent Malifaux tournament-ready teams, I did expect that they'd be a little more balanced.  There seems to be lots of synergy between the Angel Eyes models (black blood stuff, ranged + these eyes miss nothin + good melee attackers) and basically none with Grimwell's (or am I totally missing it?).

As I understand from my reading, melee benefits lots more from terrain and ranged from lack thereof, so things may turn around completely in the last scenario which calls for a full dose of terrain coverage on the game board.

 

But I was just wondering:  are the teams that badly balanced, or am I missing a big synergy with Grimwell's crew?  Is it missing terrain?  --

Appreciate any input!

[-Loki-]

Just a point - how much terrain are you using? Malifaux uses more terrain than other games. You should have a good mix of terrain that entirely blocks line of sight as well as bits and peices that grant cover modifiers.

The 2E starter box is the classic Guild vs Neverborn matchup turned on it's head - Guild is generally the shooty faction with Neverborn as the fast melee faction. They intentionally turned that around for the starter. Just like playing a Neverborn crew box vs a Guild crew box, insufficient or inadequate terrain will leave the Neverborn (melee centric) side hurting.

edit - ah, just saw scenrio 5 calls for a full set of terrain. This is wise. You will likely notice a shift to being more balanced when you put more terrain down. It's just the natiure of wargames that have asymmetrical forces. You wind up with shooty factions that dominate open tables and melee factions that dominate crowded tables. The right amount of terrain is a bit of a balancing act that takes time to get right.

[Baddaysbasil]

Yeah scenarios 2 and 3 of the quickstart require only 2 pieces of terrain on an 18" square board.  That isn't so bad.

 Scenario 4, however, calls for the same setup as before except on the full 36" square board.  So me and the gf did actually note this barren landscape and still added 2 more pieces of terrain for some kind of cover, keeping the table as symmetrical for both sides as we could.

What it boiled down to was that the doctor and nurse not having enough closing/defensive power to survive the ranged attacks of angel eyes or the buffed charges of the blood wretches.

All in all the orderlies seem somewhat worthless as support when the opponent is doing more damage than can be healed with the (2) heals they have which obviously requires their whole turn.

So it just seemed pretty skewed to me; I'll report what happens in scenario 5 when we play it!

 

[-Loki-]

3 hours ago, Baddaysbasil said:

What it boiled down to was that the doctor and nurse not having enough closing/defensive power to survive the ranged attacks of angel eyes or the buffed charges of the blood wretches.

This definitely sounds like a lack of terrain. Not that they should be able to easily close the gap, they should need to be cautious about how they move foward, but they shouldn't be getting gunned down before reaching combat. This is a good guide on how much terrain you should have on the table.

 

[LordZombie]

I can speak from experience also, that the terrain might be the reason. I demoed the game using the starter also and played Guild, but was beating soundly. Angel Eyes is brutal with her shooting attacks, but a little cover can help with that. 

[Baddaysbasil]

Thanks guys!

[DaRedWun]

One thing about the ordelies:

Don't just rely on their healing. It's way too expensive to be reliable in any form. What you should is think of them as your screens. Remember that intervening models do offer cover to each other, so use those guys as meatshields.

Also, The nurse can push models around and paralize them, which can help set them up for Grimwell to lobotomize.

Mind you, the terrain is very important, but do not be afraid of getting stuck in. Specially because the Scion of Black Blood has abysmal defenses and Angel Eyes sucks in melee, so in an ideal scenario you should go for them first, not the wretches, as those guys can take some punches with their high stats for a minion.

[Omenbringer]

51 minutes ago, DaRedWun said:

What you should is think of them as your screens. Remember that intervening models do offer cover to each other, so use those guys as meatshields.

One minor correction (since it is in a thread about the Starter Box), I am assuming you are talking about LOS blocking and not actual Cover (both covered on pages 40-41 of the big book). Cover is a trait of terrain (page 60) and does not applies to models. So the Orderlies can block LOS to another target but do not provide Cover for that target.

[DaRedWun]

23 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

One minor correction (since it is in a thread about the Starter Box), I am assuming you are talking about LOS blocking and not actual Cover (both covered on pages 40-41 of the big book). Cover is a trait of terrain (page 60) and does not applies to models. So the Orderlies can block LOS to another target but do not provide Cover for that target.

Point in case. English is not my first language so I sometimes forget those minutiae.

[Omenbringer]

52 minutes ago, DaRedWun said:

Point in case. English is not my first language so I sometimes forget those minutiae.

Eh no worries man, if it wasn't a thread specific to the Starter Box I wouldn't have wrote anything. I knew what you meant but a new player stumbling in via a search might not.

[Manxfaux]

I found the opposite actually. I demo'd the starter and found the guild player usually won. The wretches are solid but the plus flips on the charge are less impactive when the control hand vs model count is so high, and the rage action limits them to one attack. The orderly's heals usually create a stalemate until the wretch inevitably misses and allows the orderly to eventually smack it down.

we just used the empty deck boxes as walls on the centre line as our terrain, which Grimwell in particular found fine. His large movement saw him safe turn 1, popping out to tear Angel a new one turns 2&3.

In the end I had to advise the NB players to remember they were the shooting crew and should stay back a bit, just to give them a fighting chance.

[-Loki-]

9 hours ago, Manxfaux said:

I found the opposite actually. I demo'd the starter and found the guild player usually won. The wretches are solid but the plus flips on the charge are less impactive when the control hand vs model count is so high, and the rage action limits them to one attack. The orderly's heals usually create a stalemate until the wretch inevitably misses and allows the orderly to eventually smack it down.

This, however, should be offset by Angel Eyes ability to shoot into combat with impunity. Coupled with her ability to move after each shot with a trigger, and her 0 action being another shooting ability, she can shoot into combat to help out the Wretches while positioning herself away from any threats.

[Baddaysbasil]

On March 10, 2016 at 4:58 PM, -Loki- said:

This, however, should be offset by Angel Eyes ability to shoot into combat with impunity. Coupled with her ability to move after each shot with a trigger, and her 0 action being another shooting ability, she can shoot into combat to help out the Wretches while positioning herself away from any threats.

Yes.  In my experience These Angel Eyes Miss Nothin' was what made the difference in each of our games.

That said, we did play out the fifth scenario in the quickstart manual, which included more terrain.  I'm glad to say that this game resulted in a draw, swaying the balance question toward the side of toward balance rather than lack thereof.  The game had an objective to control the center of the map (in our case a statue with hedges around it), but we basically went for each others' throats instead.  The girlfriend scoffs at doing anything else!

Anyway, we went head-up and though it was an orderly and Grimsbane vs. Angel Eyes and the Scion when the end of turn 5 came around, we had each killed off our marked targets and ended up tied at 2 VP each.

We'll probably play a few more games with this setup, moving arond the terrain or perhaps deloyment zones.  Since I have the core 2e rulebook now and my gal forbids my buying any more minis until these are all painted, I'll likely return to give a report on how things go with a few more starter set-only games that use different scenarios as well.

 

 

 

[-Loki-]

2 hours ago, Baddaysbasil said:

The game had an objective to control the center of the map (in our case a statue with hedges around it), but we basically went for each others' throats instead.  The girlfriend scoffs at doing anything else!

Another point - Malifaux is a very objective focused game. You need to play to the schemes and scenario rather than just straight up punch faces, because some crews are just better at that than others. I made this mistake yesterday in a game against Lucius when I had my Lilith led Nephilim crew get stuck in, when I'd never played against Lucius before and didn't realise how many additional actions (in this case, melee attacks) he generates for his crew. I'd have been better off using Sprint to have my Tots run around dropping loads of scheme markers.