Mr. Cooper's Dark Carnival - Playtesting Sessions Week 5

[Da Git]

Hi all!  Time for the Week 5 cards!

 

Kalkris's computer has gone a bit bung so that has left me to keep the show on the road!

 

Here's the design brief from Kalkris (post 1 of the last thread) PLEASE READ THIS FIRST IF YOU ARE NEW!

Open Spoiler

Okay, so: The Dark Carnival is coming out for GenCon, as a proxy crew for Colette's standard loadout (Colette, 3 Mechanical Doves, Cassandra, 2 Performers, and 2 Mannequins). We are getting a number of named models, themed after a circus troupe described in detail in the latest Wyrd Chronicles (images for the crew box are also in that issue). The Dark Carnival proxies as Colette, as mentioned above.

 

I am not satisfied with that alone.

 

What I have been tossing about as an idea both on this forum and on AWP is the idea of being amateur (or better!) devs and betatesters, all of us, and creating our own set of rules for Mr. Cooper and his Dark Carnival.

 

And that we did.

 

Now we are onto Stage 2 of this wonderful journey of ours: Playtesting. If you have been watching this space with great interest (or any interest at all, even), you probably have done so with the interest of playtesting this unofficial crew. That, or you probably just want to watch our process and progress. We finished the brainstorm rather early, and now it is the public's turn to give as much feedback as they desire.

 

Unfortunately, I got a reply from Aaron Darland about getting this crew ruleset into the Chronicles and he said that between people skimming the Chronicles for things, and people just plain not reading the Chronicles, it wouldn't reach a wide enough audience and those it would reach may accidentally take the crew as solicited and official. So, the Chronicles is out, but I'm still by all means down to do this! Hope you are too.

 

If you are comfortable working on a set of custom rules for casual games, and willing to make a constructive contribution, please feel free to join in on this great adventure.

 

~~~~~

 

DISCLAIMER: This project is not in any way supported or endorsed by Wyrd Games. I am not affiliated with Wyrd except by virtue of being a Henchman. Any games of Malifaux (Wyrd's game) involving this ruleset must be approved by all parties involved before being conducted. Official Wyrd events may not include this ruleset.

 

~~~~~

 

Credit thus far goes to:

Solicitor 6 (major idea contributor)

Da Git (major idea contributor)

Manic Mouse (major idea contributor)

Crush_Jansen (major idea contributor)

SpiralingCadaver (for providing stat card templating)

Phinn (idea contributor)

Dirial (idea contributor)

Fetid Strumpet (for recommending I contact SpiralingCadaver)

Patzer (idea contributor)

Victoria (idea contributor)

Bstorz (idea contributor)

Clockwork Top Hat (idea contributor)

Jafar (idea contributor)

Adran (idea contributor)

TimH (idea contributor)

and myself, as well as anyone who voted.

 

~~~~~

 

Models representing models:

 

Mr. Cooper (30mm) = Colette

Lola (30mm) = Cassandra

Flying Monkey (30mm) x3 = Mechanical Dove (x3)

Thin Lizzy (30mm) = Performer

Mercury (30mm) = Performer

Mummerette (30mm) x2 = Mannequin (x2)

 

Here's the playtest schedule

Open Spoiler

So, with the time we have, we will have 6 weeks for thematic, 6 for Arcanists and 6 for Neverborn. I want to split it like that alternating by week:

 

Week 1 (7/6-7/12) - Thematic initial - look over crew to start, changes can be made

Week 2 (7/13-7/19) - Arcanist initial - no changes until Neverborn initial ends - Wave 1

Week 3 (7/20-7/26) - Neverborn initial - changes applied at end - Wave 1

Week 4 (7/27-8/2)- Thematic #2 - look over crew with changes, changes can be made that do not override W1-3

Week 5 (8/3-8/9) - Break for GenCon recuperation

Week 6 (8/10-8/16) - Arcanist #2 - no changes until Neverborn initial ends - Wave 1

Week 7 (8/17-8/23) - Neverborn #2 - changes from W4-6 applied at end - Wave 1

Week 8 (8/24-8/30) - Thematic #3 - make sure nothing degenerate affects thematic crew

Week 9 (8/31-9/6) - Arcanist #3 - make sure nothing degenerate affects Arcanist faction - Wave 1

Week 10 (9/7-9/13) - Neverborn #3 - make sure nothing degenerate affects Neverborn faction - Wave 1

Week 11 (9/14-9/20) - Thematic #4 - Repeat Week 1

Week 12 (9/21-9/27) - Arcanist #4 - Repeat Week 2, add Wave 2

Week 13 (9/28-10/4) - Neverborn #4 - Repeat Week 3, add Wave 2

Week 14 (10/5-10/11) - Thematic #5 - Repeat Week 4

Week 15 (10/12-10/18) - Arcanist #5 - Repeat Week 6, add Wave 2

Week 16 (10/19-10/25) - Neverborn #5 - Repeat Week 7, add Wave 2

Week 17 (10/26-11/1) - Thematic #6 - Repeat Week 8

Week 18 (11/2-11/8) - Arcanist #6 - Repeat Week 9, Add Waves 2 & 3

Week 19 (11/9-11/15) - Neverborn #6 - Repeat Week 10, Add Waves 2 & 3

Week 20 (11/16-11/22) - Final - Done!

 

And finally, the cards!

We had one game last week with Neverborn that went pretty well with the Oddity upgrades, but it'd be great to test out the Insidious Madness with an Oddity upgrade (as they now give the Carny Characteristic) and if they're OP with The Haze effects

 

You can download them here: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=25307242758667949498

If you really want me to post the cards here, please let me know (it's a lot of effort!)

 

Week 5 Change Log

Open Spoiler

Mister Cooper:

• Upped Silken Scarf’s Rg to 3
• The Haze only gets Thicker – rewritten
• Whip Into Shape Trigger – replaced with Exotic Perfume
• Wouldn’t Recognise his own Son – Rewritten
• Blow Smoke – Rewritten

Flying Monkeys

• Hazy Demise – Rewritten

Baritone Lola

• Forms Given Fears – Enemy only
• The Haze only gets Thicker – replaced with The Haze Lingers

Thin Lizzy

• Lure – Replaced with Blind Adoration

No More Mr. Nice Guy

• Rewritten
• Thinking about changing the Masks for a Crows

Oddity Upgrades

• Characteristics replaced with the Carny Charateristic

 

Still need to decide what we want to do about this too!

The other one is with the new Coryphee model coming out.  So far we don't if it's just the duet or all three models.  if it's just the duet, Kalkris had the idea of after a Mummerette "partnered" a Monkey, they would sacrifice and summon the new model (which we need to make).  Thoughts?

 

Lamo & Carcosa also suggested that Mr. Cooper does only one thing & that he could benefit from interacting with the Poison Condition.  Any ideas?

 

The two limieted upgrades still help a different style, with NMM.NG giving him more Combat/Healing/card draw Prowess and WtMN giving him more support in the Oddities & buffing Blow Smoke.

[asrian]

Week 3 cards?

[Da Git]

Silly copy and paste!

 

The link leads to the Week 5 cards though!

[Carcosa]

I gotta admit folks, I am -really- leery of the whole Hazy condition being stackable. Turn 1 Cooper silk scarves Lola 3 times to give her hazy 3 and you all of a sudden have a model with terrifying (ALL) 15 for 10 SS. Even at turn 2 assuming you activate cooper before lola she will be terrifying 14. That does not even take into consideration all the other base TN 12 checks you have baked in........

[Da Git]

That's a good point there. Although it is quite Mask intensive. I'll make that trigger enemies only.

[Carcosa]

Sac a monkey, you get your masks

[Da Git]

Whether or not the cost is worth it doesn't really matter as it's not really an interaction I want so I'll make that trigger enemies only in the next update.

Also thinking of making all of Lola's Wp duels one less but adding that if Lola is the crew's leader he adds +2 to his TNs. That way he's worth it for Henchmen led games.

[Kalkris]

If we do that for Lola, Da Git, can we add a clause akin to Apprentice Wesley's thing, that makes Lola the Leader of the crew if a friendly Mr. Cooper is killed or sacrificed by an enemy model? It'd be a good way to keep Lola sharp while Coops is kaput.

 

~Lil Kalki

[asrian]

I plan to try to run the crew against Da Git. I'll try to exploit the hell out of it.

And Kalkis, you and I still need a game. General game or Cooper test game

[Carcosa]

Which trigger do you want to make enemy only git?

Exotic perfume?

[Da Git]

That's the one.  I don't think any of the others need enemy only do you? 

 

Also, it's great getting some fresh eyes on this Carcosa, writing the rules causes me to miss a lot (like missing the Wp part of THogS)!

 

For Lola's The Haze Lingers

Current text.

In addition, if there is no friendly Mr. Cooper in play, all Simple Wp Duels generated by this model add +2 to their TNs.

 

Can you use these for any playtest games this week.  All I've done is made Exotic Perfumes enemy only and added that extra bit to Lola's The Haze Lingers.

Can you test out how the TNs are?  Are they too high? (Mr. Cooper's & Lola's can potentially get to 15)

 

 

 

[Carcosa]

The wording is better, sure.

 

Adding that clause to Lola............... Personally I think she was too cheap anyway, adding that makes me think that even moreso.

 

My big problem is that stacking it is still way to powerful IMHO. You could drop your basic TN's to tens, and then add up to +3 to them, or you could leave them where they are and just allow the hazy condition to add +1 if someone has it, which would be more in line with other similar abilities, and just let the build up of Haze allow for a late game fast surge (after all, nothing on the haze dissipates says you can only use it once per turn.............)  

[Da Git]

The TNs are probably too high, I'm going to be playing against the Dark Carnival tomorrow, so I'll have some first hand experience!  Another possible solution is to make Exotic Perfumes limited to after inflicting Severe damage.

[Kalkris]

Perhaps Moderate or Severe damage?

 

Also, I think the way you worded Lola makes Lola a bit awkward in games where Mr. Cooper is not the Leader. I think if you changed "Mr. Cooper" to "friendly Leader" it would be more potent as a rattlesnake sort of ability.

 

~Lil Kalki

[Carcosa]

You mean the perfume trigger Kalkris?

Given the suggested change by Da Git, that -could- work, but I would still see it as a "band aid" solution to the actual issue of Haze being too powerful given the current TN's. By turn three, Mr Cooper has his +3, which lola will always be able to take advantage of, but if he wants to keep it and take advantage of your give out the fast condition (which I think is actually really cool).

 

Let me suggest a work around that -might- be of interest to you.

 

Silk scarf trigger:

: Target model gains the hazy 1 condition. Friendly models with the Hazy condition add 1 to the TN of all simple WP duels they generate and enemy models remove 1 from the TN of all simple WP duels that they generate.

 

Rewording of The Haze Dissipates:

(1) CA: 6 TN: 10 Rst: WP. Rng: 12

Reduce the Hazy condition on the target model by exactly one. If this model is friendly, it gains the fast condition, if it is an enemy model, it gains the slow condition.

:mask: After resolving this action, take this action again. This action may not declare triggers.

 

How does this sound?

[Kalkris]

See, I don't see it as a bandaid. I see it more as a restriction. And if it sticks, it's a permanent solution. Remember that playtest won't be forever (I know we're only a quarter in but it does bear mention), and these rules will be set (barring whatever sort of erratae may be needed - but even then, as this is unofficial so probably not even that) at the end.

 

I don't think I like the baggage for Hazy to be on anything or anyone but the Hazy Condition itself. As there is no feasible, succinct way to differentiate friend or foe on a condition, it likely must be one thing or the other. I personally like the upping of TNs on friendlies more than the downing of TNs on enemies.

 

By such a token, I do like having the Hazy Condition be centric to Mr. Cooper (and, indirectly, Lola). If we keep The Haze Dissipates (and I'd like to change the name of that action to something like "Blurs/Shapes In The Haze" - implying that the Haze isn't quite leaving anytime soon, fluffwise), it should just be that Hazy is removed from Mr. Cooper and targets any model *but* him (small point of clarification though, that isn't my main thing about your version of THD - I mentioned this exact issue to Da Git before - it's that I'd like the Haze to stick on Cooper and few else).

 

Perhaps, as a better solution than spreading the Haze around, why don't we make Cooper add it until the end of his next Activation, instead of for the rest of the game? That way, it's more of a "use it or lose it" type deal, but with a longer frame to accommodate for the duels needed to be made.

 

In such a case, I might actually add a Df/Wp trigger to Mr. Cooper (on an upgrade, maybe NMMrNG?) to give him Hazy +1 after resolving, until the end of his next Activation. Then we could put a in his Wp to make the in his Df have a bit of synergy. Thoughts? Perhaps, if worst comes to worst, we can make the trigger so as to still need a suit in each stat for it to work? We could call it "Uncloud Your Mind".

 

Unrelated note: I wanted to mention - the game I had with Mirce last time... I took no extra stones and ended up without many at all. If anyone is inquiring into lowering his cache, I am opposed to the idea. A lot of those models are rather squishy, especially in games with remarkably kill-y scheme pools.

 

~Lil Kalki

[Carcosa]

Sure, try all options out! As you say, this is play testing, and it is up to the people doing the play testing to try whatever they want. I'm sitting here in the peanut gallery basicly as I have no chance to try these things out due to my own circumstances.

If the wording change works, awesome .

 

On the haze.

I just can't see -any- existing ability in Malifaux that is so powerful, and I know I keep harping on it, but it -really- bugs me. Yes, sure, you want to expand the rules and have new ways to do stuff, I get it, I really do, but it simply has no comparison to anything.

It's not like Chi, which only affects Yan Lo, and costs a card to raise "naturally"

It's not like Adrenaline, which also only affects Ironsides as well.

 

It is a build up resource, that builds natively every turn at no cost or restriction, can be gained by attack actions, has a passive effect on both Cooper and friendlies in his bubble (and one no matter where she is), and can be spent to hand out conditional AP's by way of fast (on up to 3 -models- as a (1) action mind you )!  I don't think it is bad as a new mechanic, but I really feel it is just -way- beyond any existing mechanic as it stands.

 

Having said that, you idea of making it a use it or loose it resource is quite possibly too harsh as a balancing tool. In addition you would create an additional layer of "bookwork"  required to track it. (Which did I spend for fast, the one I gained this turn, or the one I gained last turn). 

 

At the end of the day however, You folks need to test all this out for yourselves, I could very well be over-reacting to it.

[Kalkris]

I mean, sure, we could have it cost a discarded card in order for Cooper to gain one Hazy point at activation. That's not a bad idea, considering Yan Lo's precedent.

 

I think that if we lowered Lola's Terrifying, et al, to about 10 (maybe 9 at worst), that would make this a bit better. There is still a cap of +3 affecting the TNs for Cooper, Lola, and those in the bubble. And while there is presently bookkeeping involved, perhaps we can alter the idea bit then by making Hazy last until the beginning (or end, if the beginning of the next activation proves too powerful? Or maybe just end of turn?) of Cooper's activation, and then giving Cooper something that says that he retains the Hazy Condition up to +3.

 

That way, if Cooper gets up to 3 or 4 in a given turn lower than the hazy value he has, he has to get rid of it or use it in an economical fashion. All the while, Cooper can still spend Hazy, or keep it (to a point). Maybe we could even alter Blow Smoke to be any number of markers at the cost of that much Hazy, to give an alternate form of expenditure of the condition.

 

I do agree though that THD needs a duel as opposed to *just* spending the Hazy to give Fast. I also think it should be once a turn, if we make it a (1). It seems better suited as a (0) though, although a once-per-turn (1) would take some heat off of other (0) actions.

 

~Lil Kalki

[Carcosa]

Dropping the TN's is something I suggested before, or limiting it to +1 if you have the condition (see sensei Yu for precedent with focus).

 

Given the changes suggested to Hazy however, there is no way he can gain more than Hazy 4 in one turn, and only if he is really in the thick of things enough to hit 3 other enemy models in one turn, and while he is pretty survivable with your defensive trigger, upgrade, and cache, it's still not a place I would want a support master.

 

Perhaps look at making gaining the haze a (0) action to gain 2 haze, and also a (0) action to spend it for fast?

[jtuarus]

see i really liked this last iteration alot maybe takeing tns down by 1 is a good idea. but the crew works now like a mix of collodi and brewmaster. now lola is about the only one that doesnt just die when things look at it. i had a guild marshal put down mercury in 2 attacks with his attack on the death did nothing to 3 model now you  can say some of it was due to card flips but still he is the tank lola with upgrade is the only one to live reliably. the colette type slieght of hand can get cooper out of trouble once but if a opponent dedicates 2 models he is as good as dead.  and is chatty all thin lizzy is for now i dont really think she poses any real use one scheme marker two on a trigger as her only real ability cause she has never been in melee in any game ive played yet.

 

now the mumerettes are pretty good but dont have any ideas on them.i love the haze markers they work fantastic with the upgrade they make defending a marker a realistic task. now i have a question does lady js natural order effect wouldnt recognize condition?

 

ok and as promised i have rules for coryphee so you must sac a mummertte and a flying monkey to summon The Unearthly Duet. instead of blades the main attack is bladed ribbons and have it as like the steam arachnid swarm attack with the trigger being whirlwind of ribbons or cut to ribbons. give them move 4 and flight and ablility called monkey see.. when a friendly flying monkey model within 3" is placed this model may place within 3" and becomes ingsinifacant. now heres my issue do we want it rare 1 or 2. also i know its early and horse and cart and all but ive been putting together some rules for The avatar of Amusement.

[Carcosa]

A post that got eaten:

 

I was watching some Alice film clips yesterday, specifically WTMN, I noticed a lot of puppet imagery in the clip. Perhaps an ability to allow him to hire puppets would be in theme as well?

[Da Git]

Making a new Topic,

please post there!