How to stop Leveticus

[sharpobjects]

The hard counter to Levi is Perdita and Austringers along with adding in her totem and francisco. Full stones, her 3 standard upgrades and then add in a few other models of your choice with the remaining stones. I am not saying auto win but it will give Levi the most trouble because you can bring the Pressure on his waifs very early in the game. Perdita is also very difficult for Levi to remove because she will have stuborn and should be placed in cover causing Levi to spend a serious amount of resources and he may miss anyway going against wp 9. Usually Levi tries to snipe out Francisco but if he is placed carefully depending on the table terrain you can keep him safe for the first 2 turns. 

 

Victor took my Perdita crew to a 2nd place finish at Adepticon going 4-0-1. I was unable to attend on Saturday to pay it myself. He was going to play his Seamus belle spam list but I convinced him to run Perdita because I personally knew of 4 players that were going to play Levi. We agreed it gave him the best chance even though he is very good with Seamus and his belle's. Victor ran the same list for all 5 games. No changes. 

 

Joe our other buddy from our play group took 1st place as you know playing outcast. He played 2 games with Jack, 2 games with Levi and one game with Von Schill if my memory serves me correctly. One of the Levi games he hired 5 Belle's and tore up a Kirai player by luring everything away from her and her totems Ikiryo bubble. 

 

I have beaten Joe on at least two occasions at the LGS using Perdita against his Levi. I think Joe would agree it causes him the most problems. Maybe Ulix might give Levi a run as well. On paper he looks very powerful with how he synergies with the pigs. There are very few answers to Levi. The reason is he has so many answers to the problems most masters and or their crews have. 

 

He can ignore armor, hard to wound, hard to kill, soul stone prevention, hand out slow, kill you and make a pesky pita Abom out of you. He can gain positive twist to attack and damage for all 3 of his AP. He doesnt care that he gets wounded because as long as he has waifs on the board if he dies he removes all conditions, heals and comes back at the end of the turn. To keep him honest and playing semi defensive you have to be able to pressure those waifs. Which Perdita and the Austringers can do quite easily. A gremlin crew with the pigapult can potentially do it as well. But again these are very vew options. 

 

He is very mobile when you consider his zero action to be placed into btb with an undead or contruct 10 inches away. He can also pop out in btb with one of potentially 3 waifs that are standing in 3 different areas of the board. As Icemyn explained there is no detriment to jumping to A&D. 

 

I have run what I consider a very elite all outcast crew. I cant even recall every losing with it against masters from every faction. Ulix withstanding. I had to stop playing it because it was so stupid. Levi doesnt need to hire out of faction to be elite. I dont think Pariah of Iron and Bone are an issue at all. I do understand how they can be percieved as such because he can hire outstanding models from all the factions minus gremlins. 

 

Having said that I do agree nothing should be changed yet and the discussion should remain open. I too want to see what happens when Ulix and other models get released through out the year. Wave 3 can and will change things as well. Next year, regardless of how good Levi is, very few people might be playing him. Many will move on to the next thing. 

 

What I am happy the most about is Neverborn isnt always dominating the formats like they did in M1E. Neverborn is very good dont get me wrong but there are also answers to their crews in M2E and its not an auto win when someone puts the Dreamer or Lilith down on the table. 

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Levi didnt win me Adepticon. The outcasts did. I ran Schill once, Daw twice, and Levi twice.
The reason I didnt run him every round is because he is not the end all be all.

Against Neverborn and extraction I think Schill is better.
Against Guild I think Levi is at a big disadvantage.

Daw is better board control then Levi because Levi has to keep his waifs and his anchors safe.

 

I agree with the Polishsausage. Levi has a low learning curve to play and a high learning curve to beat.
You have to also remember that Levi must use all his AP to kill a model. He's not like a melee beater who can flip a severe, trigger onslaught, kill his target, charge another, trigger onslaught,ect ect. Levi is good because he has little fear of dying and can make a model as he erases one thing from the board. But he also suffers from losing the initiative because he relies on that positive for damage. Without channeling, he cannot ignore cover and he's damage will likely be weak's of 2. Fast crews and crews that ignore LoS are especially good at getting to Levi's waifs. Without them Levi loses tons of his potency.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

(congrats Joe!)

Thanks!!

[Icemyn]

I did lose to Victor playing the Guild list Sharp Objects Mentions. IF there is a hard counter for Levi it would be that list.

Going into the game he knew what I was running and if I had any other master painted I would have played them instead.

Unfortunately, I spent the months leading up painting someone else's models.

iirc I lost 6-8 so it wasn't completely one sided and I arguably made a mistake that cost me several VP. 

 

Double Austringer can be quite the nightmare moreso if the terrain prevents you from reaching them. 

[papa smurf]

Would argue Sonnia is better than Perdita at countering Levi. Still double stringer and Frank cause wp 9 counter spell add cover and gl Levi removing her.

Flame walls to limit Levi 's los and the aura to burn his stones or cheat what ever tome he has and never really getting triggers.

Blasts from an anchor tagging waifs. Loco helps this.

But generally it's the stringers that limit Levi 's mobility.

[sharpobjects]

Levi's crew can lock sonia into combat on turn 1 after she activates. I agree that her counter spell aura keeps Levi from going after her from a distance as well as franciscos +2/+2 and her own zero action +2 but he can very easily out activate your crew and move key models into melee with her. Now her and her crew have to spend AP getting her out of combat on turn 2. The DE can be given a 23 inch threat range on turn 1, with melee expert, a zero action and industrial nightmare at the end of the 23 inches. This model is usually the 8th or 9th model to activate in Levi's crew. 

 

I am not sure if you have ever seen how aggressive a Levi crew can be on Turn 1 and the amount of carnage and denial it can do. I have never had a problem shutting down Sonnia's blasting capability early in the game. Resulting in her swinging her sword wildly, which is fine by me. 

 

Terrain dependant of course when you add in flame walls. 

[papa smurf]

I don't think you have truly ever played a real Sonnia player. Also desolation engine....you do know Frank is a thing right. Or how he can pull her out of combat or push. And winning initiative is not super important when you have expert Sleuth. So you just fed me a free model that takes 1 maybe 2 activations to put down. Sonnia's sword drawing her cards and healing what ever damage you did.

Or my favorite pine box him. Oh knows. Model gone and Sonnia still has free reign.

Also who takes desolation engines?

[PolishSausage]

we do quite often,  with scout the field and fast from ashes and dust he moves 20 inches turn one and melee experts something. He will also go late in a turn after you moved your stuff so no double walking on objectives for you are you will start losing stuff fast.

 

Levy with scout the field and oath keeper can jump for a 0 to ashes and dust mid field and unload 4 times into your crew. If you did int bunch up around sonia with all your models ( meaning you barely left your deployment zone) you are losing 2 minions that turn and he is drooping 2 aboms.

 

The issues for most crews occur is he just killed your stuff and made free stuff, and while you are now at priority to take out the two silly aboms that are taking all your 0's away ( no Francisco push) you are wasting AP not doing objectives and not advancing out off deployment. The following turn you better 100% win initiative because he will jam you again before you even had a chance to deal with the previous aboms.

 

2 distinct issues with Levy here: His mobility ( because outcasts and 0) and his range ( super powerful gun he can focus at 12 inches)

 

Dont get me wrong I am  ultimatly with you that we can say stuff on boards but its all in the hands of skilled players and their crews. Its all in the understanding of priority targets and ability to mitigate your opponents power plays. Unfortunately there are some models/masters in the game the create power plays turn 1 (perdita, austringers, snipers, pigapult) and this can dictate the game rather quickly

[Icemyn]

Ok I love me some Levi and alot of what you are saying there can be true but in reality isn't. 

 

If Levi teleports upfield he has used his 0 and thus cannot sacrifice himself. This is important because it means he is unlikely to channel any of the attacks. Given that any reasonable player will have most of their models in cover means this turn one "ambush" attack is not going to be very effective. 

Levi with scout, desolate warping, oathkeeper 4ss

2x waifs
Ashes 13ss
DE 13ss 

You are at 30ss and 5 models and in need of at least one more anchor. Unless you are bringing the rat package for out activation shenanigans you will not out activate most crews reliably especially if losing initiative. 

The plan listed serves to do minimal damage, maybe tie up the opposing master and Levi exposed in the middle of the field in dire need of winning initiative. 

 

**MODS** I am reporting this post so that you can move this comment and all the related ones to a new thread, so as not to derail this one further. 

[sharpobjects]

I am going to send you a very detailed PM so as not to derail this thread further. When you read the list and the activation order and what gets done on turn 1 I think it will intrigue you. 

 

 

Kirk out..

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Ok I love me some Levi and alot of what you are saying there can be true but in reality isn't. 

 

If Levi teleports upfield he has used his 0 and thus cannot sacrifice himself. This is important because it means he is unlikely to channel any of the attacks. Given that any reasonable player will have most of their models in cover means this turn one "ambush" attack is not going to be very effective. 

Levi with scout, desolate warping, oathkeeper 4ss

2x waifs

Ashes 13ss

DE 13ss 

You are at 30ss and 5 models and in need of at least one more anchor. Unless you are bringing the rat package for out activation shenanigans you will not out activate most crews reliably especially if losing initiative. 

The plan listed serves to do minimal damage, maybe tie up the opposing master and Levi exposed in the middle of the field in dire need of winning initiative. 

 

**MODS** I am reporting this post so that you can move this comment and all the related ones to a new thread, so as not to derail this one further. 

 

I"ll just say that doing an alpha with Levi this way can be well worth the loss of one waif. Sure he's not making one and he'll have low wounds. Ideally, you'll try and kill him yourself just so he has full wounds next turn. (Or if your opponent is silly they'll kill him for you, why they would idk because levi with no wounds is a neutered levi).

But, if that earns you a kill on a key model early game then its absolutist worth it. Take a trapper or two in your list so you have the anchor who is nowhere near danger. Sure, you'll have to play smart the rest of the game but some crews rely on their key models too much to lose them turn 1.

[Hateful Darkblack]

(topic split off from http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/107616-rabble-rousing-and-whining-thread/page-5 )

[SpectreEliteGaming]

I"ll just say that doing an alpha with Levi this way can be well worth the loss of one waif. Sure he's not making one and he'll have low wounds. Ideally, you'll try and kill him yourself just so he has full wounds next turn. (Or if your opponent is silly they'll kill him for you, why they would idk because levi with no wounds is a neutered levi).

But, if that earns you a kill on a key model early game then its absolutist worth it. Take a trapper or two in your list so you have the anchor who is nowhere near danger. Sure, you'll have to play smart the rest of the game but some crews rely on their key models too much to lose them turn 1.

I couldn't say I agree more. A misplaced key model turn one is a game swinger right there. R1 of Adeticon Masters I sac'd A&D, burned oathkeeper and put Izamu into the ground - with a weak half of the board the rest of the game my opponent had one hell of a time dealing with it. I'll always look for a good Levy-zerg target and I consider the first waif a freebie. After your first waif dies then you start playing "for real."