Placement effects as part of an ability or an action

[Myyrä]

What happens when lack of space (or other reason) prevents a placement effect that is part of an ability or an action from happening?

Few examples:

By Your Side: Once per turn, when a friendly model within 5" and LoS of this model is targeted by an enemy model's Action, this model may be placed in base contact with the friendly model. This model is now the target of the Action, regardless of range or LoS.

What happens if Sidir can't be placed in base contact with the friendly model?

(1) What Lackeys Are For (Ca 7M / TN: 12MM): Place a Scheme Marker in base contact with this model. Then, place this model into base contact with target friendly model within 10", and place the target in base contact with the Scheme Marker which this Action placed. This Action may only be taken once per Turn.

What happens if the target model is larger than Lucius or can't be placed in base contact with the scheme marker for another reason? What happens when there is no room to place Lucius in base contact with target?

Df/Wp (t) Death Defying: When this model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it may be placed in base contact with target friendly model with a cost of 5 or more within 8". Sacrifice the target and then heal an amount of damage equal to the target's remaining Wounds plus one.

Df/Wp (M) Now You See Me...: After suffering damage, discard target Scheme Marker within 1" to reduce the damage to 0, then place this model anywhere within 6".

What happens if Colette can't be placed in base contact with target model or anywhere within 6"?

I assume there are also some other abilities and actions that start working weirdly if a placement effect can't be completed for some reason. I did not try to compile a comprehensive list.

(Who recognizes this post from somewhere?)

[Seregon]

I'm fairly sure there is something in the rulebook that states that if you can't fit the marker/model then you simply don't. If it's a summon then the summon fails, if it's a marker it just doesn't get placed.

 

So:

 

1. Sidir stays in place. Unclear if he's still the target of the Action. Yes?

2. If there's no room simply don't place the target and/or Lucius. They remain in place.

3. She dies.

 

Optionally, depending on the phrasing in the rulebook, all three actions/triggers fail and doesn't do anything at all.

[Myyrä]

I'm fairly sure there is something in the rulebook that states that if you can't fit the marker/model then you simply don't. If it's a summon then the summon fails, if it's a marker it just doesn't get placed.

 

So:

 

1. Sidir stays in place. Unclear if he's still the target of the Action. Yes?

2. If there's no room simply don't place the target and/or Lucius. They remain in place.

3. She dies.

 

Optionally, depending on the phrasing in the rulebook, all three actions/triggers fail and doesn't do anything at all.

I'm fairly sure there isn't anything like that in the rulebook. I would appreciate a quote or page number. The only mention of placed models not fitting is when model is unburied and it can't be applied to any other situations.

[Dirial]

I remember two instances of such wordings:

 

Unburying, where the model is placed in the Deployment Zone.

Summoning, where the summon fails.

 

Sadly, all other cases aren't described, as Myyrä said. Also, those two cases aren't consitent, so it's even impossible to infer a rule here. I think it's unclear at the moment, and I know how much Myyrä dislikes such cases.

[Pallas4]

I asked this http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/99696-place-a-model/

 

but without reference.

[Seregon]

Guess I misremembered and I didn't have a rulebook at hand when I posted.

 

Still, my answer would stand if I TO:d since it's the "logical" answer. Apart from the Colette question where she in my mind would only die from not being able to swap with a friendly model, not from being unable to be placed (as long as she can still discard the scheme marker).

[Dafty]

Colette can't place herself Welp she dies since she can't fulfill her trigger.

Lucious can't place himself or his friendly friend. Why did you take the action knowing you can't complete it?

Sidir is easy since one effect is a place which if you can't do it don't. But he still is the target. Regardless of range and los.

Common sense approach.

 

                                                       

Edited February 19, 2015 by Aaron.Darland
This post is now much happier. Do you like the smileys I added?

[Myyrä]

Anyone else a fan of pre measuring? If the model present fit don't do that action. If you can't do the action why would you think it works? If you can't do the ability why do you think it works? Common sense.

Colette can't place herself Welp she dies since she can't fulfill her trigger.

Lucious can't place himself or his friendly friend. Why did you take the action knowing you can't complete it?

Sidir is easy since one effect is a place which if you can't do it don't. But he still is the target. Regardless of range and los.

Common sense approach. Which makes the game work. Or your way which has no answers and is poor planning.

If this post was supposed to be useful in some way, I'm not seeing it.

[Dafty]

I guess I should ask you if you believe that if you can't do something do you think it works.

Can't be placed don't place it. Can't do the action don't do it.

This game gives you free knowledge of the game board. It wants you to play and make good choices. So if you can't place the bigger model next to the scheme well at least you got a scheme marker. If you can't place lucious next to the model. Well at least you got a scheme marker. You did that part of the action.

If Colette can't be placed anywhere within 6" uhh what kind of scenario is that possible. She can be placed on roof tops through walls to fully encompass 7" bubble (her base remember just has to have a sliver to be within. Just in case you forgot "Mr rulebook") is impossible.

On death defying if you read it it says MAY be placed. So if you can't place it guess you are choosing not to since its a May.

As mention previously sidir is still the target. But if you can't place don't. Simple.

Hopefully that was more helpful.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Aaron.Darland
Civility: A Lost Art.

[lusciousmccabe]

I'd argue (with absolutely no rules to back me up) that you are obliged not to use By Your Side or Death Defying if the place is impossible as they include a may clause. Whether that interferes with the subsequent effects is another question as there's no if clause in there.

 

For Now You See Me there's actually no scenario where you can't make the place since there has to be enough space to fit Colette within 6 inches of herself, since that includes where she is currently standing.

[Myyrä]

For Now You See Me there's actually no scenario where you can't make the place since there has to be enough space to fit Colette within 6 inches of herself, since that includes where she is currently standing.

Missingno, one of the wave 3 beta models, can prevent it.

 

Hopefully that was more helpful to you. If not let me know. I will use smaller words or larger letters or something. I am here to help you. And not break the game When a tiny bit of common sense fixes the issue.

Your answers aren't helpful because they aren't actually based on any rules.

[lusciousmccabe]

Good catch. I really hope that ability doesn't see print to be honest with you, it has so many qualifiers it makes my head sore. 

 

EDIT - The way it can potentially interact with half of What Lackeys Are For also seems needlessly awkward.

[Myyrä]

Good catch. I really hope that ability doesn't see print to be honest with you, it has so many qualifiers it makes my head sore.

Ditto.

[Dafty]

So she can't do her trigger when near missing no. Can't be placed then don't place.

And your right not rules based.

If any of these things happened in a game what would you do. How would you resolve it. Or would you (All) flip table.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Aaron.Darland
Because civility goes a long way.

[Dirial]

Dafty, I see really no reason for your aggressive tone. Okay, maybe you think the rules question posed by Myyrä is clear, but he was asking for a rules based clarification. Okay, you don't think that is needed, but I fail to see why need to call us lacking common sense for that.

[lusciousmccabe]

@ Dafty - The thread's more about when the placement part is illegal but there's more to the rule and it doesn't say "if this happens" after the place.

 

This could mean the action is completely illegal or part of it works and the other part fails, or some third thing happens. You've gone for the first option for Colette and the second for Sidir's abilities. Another option might be a compromise where you place the model as near as possible like with pushing, but there's nothing in the rules detailing that.

 

A lot of this probably comes from the fact that you can be instructed to do something impossible with a placement effect, but they don't have defined stuff that stops them like pushes do.

[Lucidicide]

I have Mod-hammered this thread so hard, it might as well be a brand new topic.

 

So stay on topic, and be civil, or my edit button will come and get you.

[lusciousmccabe]

Not Smilies!!

 

                    

 

Also, I agree with someone above's rules assessment.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Aaron.Darland
He was not on topic, so I added a vague comment at the bottom to make it so. BEWARE EDIT POWER!