I'm coming at this from an angle of helping new players into the game, and looking at this from a perspective of someone who is reading the rules in the book and on the card and trying to apply them without reading the forums.
Dreamer declares Safe in My Bed
Lethal damage gets applied during Step 5 since there's no wording in the trigger to imply damage wouldn't be recorded otherwise.
Dreamer dies.
The Dreamer isn't around any more for Safe in My Bed to occur after Step 5, since the trigger is "after succeeding."
I understand the argument that the Dreamer can basically "hold" the effects of an Action from being applied until the trigger goes off (see http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/105662-timing-of-safe-in-my-bed/), but why is this trigger special like that when it doesn't have any wording to support such an override at all (is "target friendly Nightmare within a3 suffer the effects of the Action instead as if it had been the target" really implying that I can ignore the entire Damage / Step 5 resolution section of the rulebook? If so, that's a pretty big stretch of logic.)? Why can't I "hold" the damage from being applied for any "after succeeding" trigger, if that "after succeeding" trigger would change something?
I'll go through the standard rule steps:
Is this a problem or a problem of perception?
A problem for new players (I've had it come up a few times), especially ones that want clear, non-frustrating rules. A strong ruleset needs clear rules that can be evenly applied by everyone, and this definitely is one rule that needs work. The given explanations about why it works make no sense to players outside this forum. As soon as someone reads it closely, Safe in My Bed (and other triggers similar to it) falls apart and brings up a bunch of questions that cannot be answered outside of coming on here and finding Justin's post. I'm sure plenty of you play this "correctly," but newer players or interested players don't have the luxury of assumption - if something is unclear or a rule takes leaps of logic to work, the rule is broken. There are too many good games out at the moment and not enough time to play one with broken rules.
Does it need fixed?
If you want players to not to have to hear "Oh, it reads like this, but it really works like this (which is what the forums told me)," this rule needs looked at.
What can fix it?
An FAQ entry that explictly gives these Triggers the power to overrule the normal Step 5 resolution would be great and solve all the issues. I could just point them to that entry instead of himhawing about how the Dreamer gets to hold his Step 5 from finishing until his trigger goes off, in defiance of logic.
If the powers that be want to errata it, changing the text to
Safe in My Bed: After determining any damage but before any damage reduction from an Attack Action, discard a
card to make target friendly Nightmare within
a3 suffer the effects of the Action instead as
if it had been the target, including any Triggers.
which is clear if a little clunky, easy to understand, does not change the power level of the trigger, and works fine timing-wise. Text size would have to be shrunk a bit though.
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DocSchlock
I'm coming at this from an angle of helping new players into the game, and looking at this from a perspective of someone who is reading the rules in the book and on the card and trying to apply them without reading the forums.
I understand the argument that the Dreamer can basically "hold" the effects of an Action from being applied until the trigger goes off (see http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/105662-timing-of-safe-in-my-bed/), but why is this trigger special like that when it doesn't have any wording to support such an override at all (is "target friendly Nightmare within a3 suffer the effects of the Action instead as if it had been the target" really implying that I can ignore the entire Damage / Step 5 resolution section of the rulebook? If so, that's a pretty big stretch of logic.)? Why can't I "hold" the damage from being applied for any "after succeeding" trigger, if that "after succeeding" trigger would change something?
I'll go through the standard rule steps:
Is this a problem or a problem of perception?
A problem for new players (I've had it come up a few times), especially ones that want clear, non-frustrating rules. A strong ruleset needs clear rules that can be evenly applied by everyone, and this definitely is one rule that needs work. The given explanations about why it works make no sense to players outside this forum. As soon as someone reads it closely, Safe in My Bed (and other triggers similar to it) falls apart and brings up a bunch of questions that cannot be answered outside of coming on here and finding Justin's post. I'm sure plenty of you play this "correctly," but newer players or interested players don't have the luxury of assumption - if something is unclear or a rule takes leaps of logic to work, the rule is broken. There are too many good games out at the moment and not enough time to play one with broken rules.
Does it need fixed?
If you want players to not to have to hear "Oh, it reads like this, but it really works like this (which is what the forums told me)," this rule needs looked at.
What can fix it?
An FAQ entry that explictly gives these Triggers the power to overrule the normal Step 5 resolution would be great and solve all the issues. I could just point them to that entry instead of himhawing about how the Dreamer gets to hold his Step 5 from finishing until his trigger goes off, in defiance of logic.
If the powers that be want to errata it, changing the text to
Safe in My Bed: After determining any damage but before any damage reduction from an Attack Action, discard a
card to make target friendly Nightmare within
a3 suffer the effects of the Action instead as
if it had been the target, including any Triggers.
which is clear if a little clunky, easy to understand, does not change the power level of the trigger, and works fine timing-wise. Text size would have to be shrunk a bit though.
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