MasterDisaster Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 I've recently jumped into the Neverborn and started up a Lilith crew for a beginner friendly Slow Grow League I'm running. A friend of mine has decided he didn't want to do Neverborn anymore so he could focus purely of Ressers and so he gave me Tuco and a Black Blood Shaman for free. I am planning on only using Nephilim for this league and I plan on using the BBS for a grow list or two but when or why would you include Tuco in a crew? It doesn't need to be a Lilith crew, basically I'm trying to find out how useful he is and how often he makes your lists. What roles do you give him? Where does he excel? What schemes and strategies do you find yourself using him for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 You could use him as a Tangle-point first turn, to launch a big hitter forward. He has a pretty good gun, and with Mimic's Blessing, he is quite hard to get at. That's all I can think of. Never seen him on the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterDisaster Posted January 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 You could use him as a Tangle-point first turn, to launch a big hitter forward. He has a pretty good gun, and with Mimic's Blessing, he is quite hard to get at. That's all I can think of. Never seen him on the table. That's not a bad idea on the Tangle point actually. I have only faced him once and I murdered him with Langston Turn 1 before he could activate. Not sure how he really fits in with the more traditional Nephilim but I'm hell bent on using him and Graves at some point during the League. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patzer Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 To Tuco is the answer!The good From the Shadows is great with Lilith. She can be placed as far as 12" away with 1 Tangle Shadows. Perfect for early offensive placement of Lilith, blitzing possibilites. Another great trick is that you can easily score 3 vp from Plant Explosvies on turn 1 with the sacrifice of a Prim Magic. He is a perfect decoy or target for Frame for Murder. It can provide for some early game harassment, Tuco can also go after enemy Snipers and the likes.Disguised takes away charges from the opponents repetoire of ways to attack Tuco. Blends perfect with From the Shadows. Tuco's trusty Shotgun is pretty good, especially in a faction who lacks shooting attacks. Its damage is ok, but blast damage on both severe and moderate damage makes up for that. The Stay Down trigger can be really good early game. It can basically paralyze models in their engagement zone, the TN is 12 so it can burn good cards out of the opponents hand and deck.The OK Tuco's melee attack is decent, but far from great. Flay is always nice to have. Damage track is ok! However the stat is pretty average, so be prepared to Focus or cheat down a high card when using it. Luckily Tuco's Push attack Disillusion can flush enemy beaters away from him. Its a (0) and it can get the target on for DF duel with a trigger. Its usually worth to try and get this through. Because it frees Tuco up to continue to use his shotgun. Its a push too so Tots, Rooted condition, and the Living Blade all synergies with it. Tuco's got pretty average stats overall for a 7ss model. No real strengths against any type of attack. He is a ok model to put several of the Nephilim upgrades on. Granted, this will hinder him from being out there on the offensive side of things.The bad Tuco brings a lot of different things to the table for Neverborn, a Jack of all trades so to say, meaning that he won't blow you away in any aspect either. Overall For Lilith especially, Tuco can do a lot and shouldn't be overlooked! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterDisaster Posted January 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Wow, thanks for the write up Tom, it's very insightful. I'm keen to give Tuco a try now, I really like his metal model and he definitely seems to have a place within the crew. I think once I've bagged me some Young and Mature I'll try Tuco out with his buddies to see how far I can push him. His pushes seem to work well with Lilith, the Cherub and Tots so I have some pretty cool idea's brewing with terrain and pounce manipulation that could be fun to try out. I like the idea of him leading poor victims to their dooms by pushing them into a group of Tots with a Black Blood Shaman nearby to Grow them when they kill it with Pounces or Attacks later once they are trapped in melee. Worst case scenario the enemy wastes my Tots and I go all John Wayne on their ass with a Shotgun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nical Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Tuco is not really bad. But Neverborn can hire Freikorps Trapper or other Nephilim to replace his job...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asrian Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Tuco is not really bad. But Neverborn can hire Freikorps Trapper or other Nephilim to replace his job...... True, but as Tom said (and as I like to use Tuco for) he makes a great Frame for Murder target. And he can be front to midline in the opponents face with just enough defenses to be infuriating. Throw in a gun that has blast markers (not guaranteed, but an added bonus always) and it's just mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nical Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 True, but as Tom said (and as I like to use Tuco for) he makes a great Frame for Murder target. And he can be front to midline in the opponents face with just enough defenses to be infuriating. Throw in a gun that has blast markers (not guaranteed, but an added bonus always) and it's just mean. Yes, Tuco can be good model in some situations. But I think Tuco is average model without those situations. And Masterdisaster want to use only nephilim, only Nephilim Crew is one of "some situations". So My answer for this thread is "To Tuco", too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patzer Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 As Nical said, Tuco is a situational model. In a solely Nephilim crew, he has a place, but it depends on what you want to do. His push is ok! ts a (0) so it can only be used once. Its casted on a 6, so it should go off most of the times as long as you are willing to cheat. It got a really short range of 4", which is what makes it situational. One needs to weigh in whether it is worth to give up Tuco's position in order to flush out an enemy in order to feed some hungry Tots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterDisaster Posted January 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 After reading all of the above posts I'm starting to feel that he is a 50/50 kind of model. It seems that sometimes he's really quite useful and others not so much. With the way our League is growing I can add a model/box or blister to my collection every 2 months whilst the game sizes increase by 5ss as well and we can only hire the models we've added to a set pool. I get the impression I'd probably get more mileage out of a different Nephilim such as Lilitu or Graves instead of Tuco. What do you think? How do Graves and the Twin compare in terms of effectiveness to Tuco? My initial thoughts are to add the Nephilim Box to my collection so I can hire in / grow some heavy hitters. After that point I'll probably add the Black Blood Shaman which will be at the point we are at 40ss games. After that I'll have 2 more escalation points where I can add more Nephilim to the crew so I was considering Tuco for that point in the League. Most people will be expecting the usual Lilith tricks by that point and a Shotgun wielding nutter with Black Blood probably wouldn't be expected. Saying that it is a friendly League for beginners (more of a steady paced introduction really) so taking a model I love the look of rather than one that will murder everything (Looking at you Nekima!!) might be the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patzer Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 MD, it depends on what your playstyle is and what models you currently have. Do you feel that another hitter is missing, then Graves might be it; lure effects and a good interferance model, go with Lilitu; if you want some of both categories with some added range and early options for blitzing with Lilith, then Tuco might be the answer. I guess it all depends on how you want and play Lilith too. You spoke earlier of wanting to do some Grow with the Shaman, then Graves might be the best option. He synergies well with the Shaman's healing ability too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nical Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Tuco's important things are three, Nephilim(Synergy) / From the Shadow(Deployment) / His Shotgun(Range Attack). It means If you want/need other things, take other model. So I think Tuco's value depends on what Strategy & Schemes are, too. And I agree Tom's opinion about Graves & Lilitu, Black Blood Shaman. Addtionally, I think Tuco never be worse than Lelu in Nephilim Crew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterDisaster Posted January 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Currently I own the Lilith Boxset, Tuco, Mr Graves and a BBS. I'll be picking up the Nephilim box for the Young and Mature so I can mess around with Growth and as I'm not a fan of the metal Lilitu I'll be grabbing one of these babies for Lilitu at some point. So I'm going to have lots of options available to me. I think some practice games will help me define the play style I want to use with Lilith. I usually play the attrition game with crews like Nico, Hoffman, Ramos, Von Schill etc or I go all out in your face aggression with Lady J, Viks, Misaki, Lynch, Perdita, Tara, McMourning etc. I chose Lilith as my Master for the League because although she can be very aggressive and hits like a truck she's also pretty fragile and has lots of movement shenanigans and tricks up her sleeve and I want to break from my usual smash face or tank the hell out of stuff play styles. I've always loved the idea of the Growth list and to keep the crew thematic I'm sticking with Nephilim so I need to find out how much these criteria limit me in the play styles I can use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asrian Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 If I had my choice from all of the above (which I own and have played with) I find the most use, and have used the most, Lilitu & Doppelganger, honestly. Throw in a Primordial Magic and I'd be fine for most schemes/strats. Maybe a Nephilim box for Reckoning. One of my first games with Lilith had the Doppelganger and Lilitu, and between her lure, the cherubs attacks, and the Doppelganger mimic'ing either as needed (sans triggers obviously, I remember it working very well for Turf war and Recon games. Add to that, Lilitu has a nice 4" engagement range, so can tie up models fairly easily, whether they are lured to her, or she is Tangled Shadows into them, and she can be quite handy with Lilith. Again though, that's my experience, but I find a lot of use out of her, and more out of Doppelganger than any other model in Neverborn. Best of luck to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterDisaster Posted January 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Hey Asrian, thanks for the advice. I too feel I'll get more use out of Lilitu and of course the Doppelganger is a no brainer (unfortunately she isn't Nephilim ) The Lures from Lilitu and the Cherub's Trigger will come in handy when trying to feed stuff to my Tots and Lilith's Living Blade. Additionally that 4" engagement range sounds pretty awesome to boot. I also really like the looks of the Primordial Magic but as it's not Nephilim I'll be leaving that one out of the crew until the League is over at which point I'll delve deeper into the faction to see how else Lilith can be used. I like the sound of Waldegeists with her for some Terrain Shenanigans so that's something to look forward too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeregrineFalcon Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Some quick notes. Tuco on flank deployment (really any deployment) can be quite powerful if nothing else to do things like Protect territory (using FtS and second turn start dropping markers). That's one model prepping you for 3 points and still has range to shoot at things coming up to him. The other thing that can be useful. is keeping a BBS withing in Black Blood Postulate range if you see a melee guy running to him. He has black blood which is something to never be overlooked. Overall I've had very good luck with Tuco in my lists, most recent was a Lynch crew with 2 Illuminated and a BBS (among other things). The areas he really falls apart are if your opponent has taken a lot of models with From the Shadows and you have to deploy first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patzer Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 Some quick notes. Tuco on flank deployment (really any deployment) can be quite powerful if nothing else to do things like Protect territory (using FtS and second turn start dropping markers). That's one model prepping you for 3 points and still has range to shoot at things coming up to him. The areas he really falls apart are if your opponent has taken a lot of models with From the Shadows and you have to deploy first. Tuco can be great for simply Protecting one marker while staying semi-hidden during the most parts of the game. Then the Prim Magic can just float to him for additional easy points. I agree with you on that Tuco preferably wants to Deploy last. However I have had him placed first on preferable FtS spots and then defended them very well. However, your point is very valid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterDisaster Posted January 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 He sounds like a Swiss Army Knife. Useful in lots of situations but sometimes not so much. I'd never considered using him with my Lynch crew although I've heard of some nice interactions with Illuminated and the BBS so I'll have to try that out as well soon. Having some FtS is always useful as well to get up field so Tuco may very well have to get into my League games, he sounds really fun. Especially as the League has a Perdita player 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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