"when suffering damage" vs "After damaging"

[wizuriel]

So had a situation in a game where Gracie tried to take a bit out of killjoy. 

 

Gracie has a trigger:   Eat Anything: After damaging, this model heals 1/2/3 damage.

Killjoy has: Black Blood: All models without Black Blood within  1 suffer 1 damage when this model suffers damage.

 

Looking at page 46 & 32 my understanding is both of these fall under the after damage step (as the only way to know you suffered damage is after the damage has been done). Since Gracie's is based on a Trigger though it would go before Killjoy's blackblood. Just wondering if that was played right? 

[Phinn]

Malifaux 2E - Rules manual page 51

 

General Timing

 

Most Abilities grant a passive effect, some of which have their effect when a model suffers damage or is killed. Whenever any Ability happens at the same time as any Triggers, the Triggers are resolved first. If two Abilities happen at the same time, resolve them in the following order:
1. The Acting Model resolves its Abilities.
2. The Defending Model (if there is one) resolves its Abilities.
3. Any other models controlled by the First Player resolves all of their Ability effects in any order the First Player chooses.
4. Any other models controlled by the Second Player resolves all of their Ability effects in any order the Second Player chooses.

[Phinn]

Oh... I just realized you were talking about page 46 of the Big Book, which is... General Timing. So me posting General Timing didn't help at all. Sorry, I should have checked first.

[The Godlyness]

This one is easy.

When did your model take damage. Step 5 of the duel process. So all when abilities would go off then.

"After Damaging" triggers specifically say they go after step 5 as per the rule book (see sig for page number)

So in your scenario Gracie would take black blood first and if still alive would then heal.

[wizuriel]

So when suffering goes off during step 5 but after damage has been applied (so you know if you actually suffered damage) and before after damage triggers which happen after step 5?

[The Godlyness]

Short answer yes.

Long answer yesish. Step 5 is the bane of everything. Step 5 should be step 5.1-5.9. And "After" triggers and abilities should be step 6. Its gets real complicated once you start digging.

But a simple thing that makes 99% of this work out fine.

"When" happens during step 5. "After" happens after step 5.

Cheers

[Math Mathonwy]

"When" happens during step 5. "After" happens after step 5.

What is this based on?

[The Godlyness]

Rules and logic. Here Goes

 

Page 33 5. Determine Success If the Attacking model’s duel total equals or exceeds the Defending model’s duel total and any TN associated with the Action (which may include required suits), then the Attacker has won the duel and the Action succeeds. Apply results as applicable, which is often the Defender suffering damage or another ill effect.

 

So In step 5 of the Duel process is "When" you suffer damage. Next logical step. Step 5 is "When" a model is reduced to 0 wounds. next logical step. Step 5 is "When" a model is killed.

 

  Critical Strike: When damaging the target, this Attack deals +1 damage for each   in the final duel total.

Black Blood: All models without Black Blood within 1 suffer 1 damage when this model suffers damage.

Explosive Demise 1: All models within 2 suffer 1 damage when this model is killed (not sacrificed).

Love The Job: When this model kills an enemy model it may heal 3/4/5 damage

 

If you wish to argue that these abilities (trigger) go on after step 5 make me a compelling argument.

 

Next we have "After"

 

Page 32

•After succeeding: These effects are resolved after Step 5, and only if the model with this Trigger wins the duel.
•After failing: These effects are resolved after Step 5, and only if the model with this Trigger fails the duel.

•After resolving: These effects happen after Step 5 regardless of who wins the duel.

•After damaging: These effects happen after Step 5 and only if the target suffers 1 or more damage from the Action. These effects are resolved before the damaged model is removed if it was killed by the damage

 

    Wrongfully Judged: After killing an enemy model, summon an Onryo into base contact with the target before removing it.

 

Those are all triggers. the "After" triggers happen after step 5. next logical step all "After" abilities Happen after step 5.

 

Malevolence: After a friendly Living or Undead model within 6 suffers damage from an enemy Attack Action,...

http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/104154-teddys-peekaboo-and-kirais-malevolence/page-2 (means nothing i know)

Organ Donor: After this model inflicts damage with a Ml Action, it heals an amount of damage equal to the damage inflicted.
Eat Your Fill: After killing or sacrificing an enemy model, this model may choose to heal all damage it has suffered and end its Activation.

"Delicious: After killing an enemy model, no Corpse or Scrap Markers are placed. This model heals 1/2/3 damage."

 

then if two abilities or triggers happen at the same time (ie after suffering damage, after damaging) we follow the General timing box found on page 46

 

No leaps were Taken, no smoke and mirrors, just a Straight logical argument with rules support.

 

Now Math. How do you resolve things that happen?

[Ausplosions]

That is actually the most sense you have ever made in any Timing-related post ever. 

 

Very compelling.