Make them Suffer and Obey

[Csonti]

From the FAQ:

Q: If a model is killed by an Ability or Action, which Crew counts as having made the kill?

A: When a model is killed as the result of an Action, the Crew controlling the Action counts as having 

made the kill. If a model is killed by an Ability, the model with the Ability counts as having made the kill.

 

Situation1: Zoraida Obeys an enemy model to attack an enemy minion/peon. The Attack Action kills the poor guy.

Question1: Does Zoraida get credit for the kill in regards of Make Them Suffer? (Problem is FAQ only talks about crews.)

 

Situation2: Zoraida Obeys an enemy model to attack a model in Z's crew who is marked for Frame for Murder. The model is killed by the Attack Action.

Qestion2: Was Frame for Murder accomplished? (I think it is clear, just want some confirmation.)

[brdparker]

For the first situation, unfortunately not. Don't know the page number, but I know that when my Marcus Alpha's an opposing model (he takes the model's activation for the turn), the model is still friendly to its original crew. Same goes with Obey.

 

Scenario: Z obey's an opposing Rusty Alyce to cast Burn Out on a friendly model (Target friendly non-leader construct gains reactivate and is reduced to 1 Wd). Rusty cannot target (for example) one of Z's constructs, but one of her own crew's.

 

That would mean that for the second situation, you are making their crew kill one of your models, which means they are officially the ones killing your model. Frame for Muder accomplished.

 

Anyone have the page number that talks about controlling an enemy?

[Ausplosions]

Obey DOES NOT change the models alignment.

[The Godlyness]

You quoted the faq. A model under obey is still friendly but since you control the action you get the kill. But but but Zoraida did not kill the model. The enemy model still did the killing. The kill would count for your crew for things like reckoning. But that us all.

For the frame question gets tricky but. Then enemy model did the actual killing so frame is fine. But the opponent would not be able to claim that kill for reckoning.

[Ausplosions]

You quoted the faq. A model under obey is still friendly but since you control the action you get the kill. But but but Zoraida did not kill the model. The enemy model still did the killing. The kill would count for your crew for things like reckoning. But that us all.

It would not count for reckoning either. It hasn't changed alignment. An enemy model has killed an enemy model.

For the frame question gets tricky but. Then enemy model did the actual killing so frame is fine. But the opponent would not be able to claim that kill for reckoning.

 

 

Why wouldn't your enemy count it for reckoning? His model has killed an enemy.

[zFiend]

It would not count for reckoning either. It hasn't changed alignment. An enemy model has killed an enemy model.

Why wouldn't your enemy count it for reckoning? His model has killed an enemy.

Agreed on both accounts.

[Myyrä]

You quoted the faq. A model under obey is still friendly but since you control the action you get the kill. But but but Zoraida did not kill the model. The enemy model still did the killing. The kill would count for your crew for things like reckoning. But that us all.

For the frame question gets tricky but. Then enemy model did the actual killing so frame is fine. But the opponent would not be able to claim that kill for reckoning.

Godlyness is absolutely right here (assuming I can read this correctly), because Make Them Suffer and Frame for Murder talk about enemy and friendly models killing stuff. Reckoning on the other hand talks about crews killing stuff. That means that you can obey enemy models to kill each other and get points for reckoning. Also your enemy does not get points for reckoning if you obey them to kill your models.

The reasoning behind this is the FAQ that Csonti quoted in the first post and rulebook that says

When model's Actions are controlled by the opponent (for instance with the Obey Action) the model does not change which models are considered friendly, its friends are still its friends.

[Csonti]

Well, it seems that the case is not that clear and people think differently on some aspects.

 

The main question for me here whether rules track kill credit for crews AND individual models. The wording of the FAQ (or the rulebook) doesn't give me a definitive answer.

In case it tracks for both then you can come up with a scenario that one player's crew and the opponent's model both can claim the kill. Which looks strange but who knows.

 

As for the Reckoning issue that one is at least clear to me and I'm with Godlyness and Myrra there. Reckoning looks for kill credit by crews not models, and that will go to the team that controlled the action. 

[Ausplosions]

As for the Reckoning issue that one is at least clear to me and I'm with Godlyness and Myrra there. Reckoning looks for kill credit by crews not models, and that will go to the team that controlled the action.

Actually, I think i may have been swayed also...

[Myyrä]

The main question for me here whether rules track kill credit for crews AND individual models. The wording of the FAQ (or the rulebook) doesn't give me a definitive answer.

Unfortunately the rules don't track anything. Players have to do that themselves.

I personally don't see anything too difficult here. If your crew kills enemies you can count those for Reckoning. If a model that fills the conditions for specific scheme kills something, you can count that for that scheme.

[Csonti]

I personally don't see anything too difficult here. If your crew kills enemies you can count those for Reckoning. If a model that fills the conditions for specific scheme kills something, you can count that for that scheme.

I'm still a bit uncertain whether the controlled model itself gets the kill credit or not.

In situation 2 if say The Judge kills a Silurid marked for sucker under Zoraida's Obey that would be a kill made by The Judge AND by Zoraida's Crew? (Could be I just can't read this out from the current rules and FAQ.)

[The Godlyness]

For frame for murder what crew kills it is irrelevant. It says killed or Saced by an enemy model.

So yes it's odd that you can get a two-fer by getting frame and denying the kill to the enemy crew.

On the first question. Zorida herself has not killed anything. No make them suffer.

[Therril_83]

I'm still a bit uncertain whether the controlled model itself gets the kill credit or not.

In situation 2 if say The Judge kills a Silurid marked for sucker under Zoraida's Obey that would be a kill made by The Judge AND by Zoraida's Crew? (Could be I just can't read this out from the current rules and FAQ.)

the FAQ is pretty clear that it's Zoraidas crew that controlled the action and is credited with the kill. But it doesn't mention what model is credited with the action, and since it isn't mentioned, I think it would be assumed that it isn't changed from standard procedure and that The Judge still is the one who is credited the kill and not Zoraida. This would mean that the crew that killed the model was Zoraidas, but the model that killed it is still The Judge (who is still an enemy model as the alignment doesn't change).

 

 

I quote the Rules Manual, pg89

The scheming player notes one of her own non-Peon models as the “sucker.” If

the chosen “sucker” model is killed or sacrificed by an enemy model, score 1 VP.

If the enemy model was a Master or Henchman, score 2 VP instead.

This indicates that Frame for Murder only cares about what crew the model belonged to that made the kill, and that is still enemy. So it would work to obey an enemy model to complete Frame for Murder..