Yore Huckleberry

Okay: I've changed my mind: HERE is the relevant rules issue: From page 34 of the Rulebook, the timing for damage dealing. 3. Apply damage reduction to incoming damage. Soulstone users can spend Soulstones to Reduce Damage. Any “when resolving” Triggers that reduce damage resolve at this point. 4. The model lowers its Health by an amount equal to the final damage amount. 5. Any effects that happen after a model is damaged or after a model is reduced to a specific Health, resolve at this point. Step 3 implies that you reduce the damage, and then carry forward a damage-suffered amount. Step 4 is a unique step in which the model lowers its health. Therefore the rule about ignoring additional damage applies narrowly here. Step 5 specifically notes that the steps in which "a model is damaged" and "a model is reduced to a specific health" can be separate. Given all of that, it's pretty clear that Drink Blood can use the adjusted value arrived at by step 3, while the "damage is ignored" rule only applies to the effect of lowering health. For the record, I appreciate that @solkan basically said that above -- I just wanted someone to actually put out the clear reference of where the separate things were taking place.

Okay, this is helpful. In the Corrupted Idols description the literal text is "A model in base contact with a Strategy Marker can take the Interact Action and suffer up to three irreducible damage, ignoring Hard to Kill. A model may not suffer more damage than its current Health." So the question there is whether this is 1) a timely notification/reminder of a general game rule that applies here 2) a specific change to the general rules that only applies to Corrupted Idol interacts So, rules-as-written, it simply offers it as a game rule, not a contextualized one. On the other hand, it's literally part of a strategy, so it may simply be creating that rule for that strategy, and specifically applying it only to that particular interaction. It definitely seems like the intent in the CI example is to prevent a model from suffering damage beyond its health in order to achieve a greater benefit. On the one hand, this is when health is being used as a resource for an impact, and not when an extra benefit is being connected to dealing damage. On the other hand, it's a clear example of an effect being directly connected to the amount of damage suffered and that interaction being capped at the model's health. I had been somewhat on the fence, but I think if I were a TO and got the question cold, this would persuade me that models don't suffer damage beyond their health because that damage is ignored. Intriguingly, I think that if you DID target a Hard to Wound model with 2 health and deal 5, the model DOES actually suffer the full damage, since the effect changing the result is that Hard to Wound simply doesn't allow the damage to reduce the health below 1, rather than ignoring the damage directly.

Yeah, I think it's covered by similarly worded items such as Distracted or Focused: anything that comes with a +X value stacks (as opposed to like Slow or an ability like Humiliation in the Field Reporters). I think the way it works is this: In the timing window in which you're about to deploy a model, you check all "When Deploying" effects. For example, if I had a crew with CBasse, BBasse, and a Frontiersman with Home on the Range, it goes like this: 1) I begin to deploy Cornelius Basse 2) "When Deploying Effects" alter the deployment of CBasse 2a) Cornelius's "Home on the Range" affects him, allowing him to deploy +1" beyond the zone 2b) Bernadette's HOTR affects him, allowing him to deploy +1" beyond the zone. Because it is a "+" ability, he is now at 2". 2c) the Frontiersman's HOTR affects him allowing him to deploy +1" beyond the zone. He is now at +3". 3) Cornelius is actually placed on the board. 4) I begin to place Bernadette Basse. Steps 2a-2c now apply to her. Etc.

Like, if the rulebook said "if a model suffers damage greater than its remaining wounds, its wounds are set to 0," then I would read Drink Blood as recovering 5 instead of 2. But against a rule that says the "damage is ignored," I don't see how the model is suffering it. Edit: Hard to Kill, for example, simply says, "When this model suffers damage, if it has 2 or more health, it may not be reduced to below 1 Health." So in that circumstance, the damage is clearly all viewed as suffered at once, but the effect of receiving damage isn't able to reduce your Health below 1. But when a model receives damage equal to its Health, then the remaining damage is explicitly ignored. It seems to me that the damage comes in as a single, indivisible amount (5), and the model then suffers that hit, but 3 of it is ignored by the death rule that calls for damage beyond remaining health to be ignored. It seems to me there's only one timing window for the damage to be ignored in, and that's the one in which it's being dealt.

So, I hear @santaclaws01 and @solkan saying the rule doesn't work this way, but I'd still really like to actually see a ruling or a page reference. I hear what Solkan wrote above that a model can "suffer" any amount of damage but sometimes another effect takes precedence, such as the restriction in going below wounds. But in the case of going below your wound count, the rules literally state that the damage is "ignored," and not that the damage "is not applied to wounds" or something like that. I'm still not seeing the case for damage being simultaneously ignored and suffered by the model. Again, if there's a parallel ruling or an illustrative similar example or a page reference, I'm happy to be made aware of it and shift my position.

I agree with @solkan here -- the incorporeal rules don't allow you to stop your push, but you're okay because the ability itself doesn't require you to be stopped, just to have "come into base contact" during the push. The USUAL way for that is of course to get stopped by it, but you'll have come into base contact even if you charge right through the dreamer.

It feels like Lady J is strong vs Outcasts, too: Tara is hit hard by Jury and Death Marshal Recruiters Lady J can keep up with Zipp to focus him down You can alpha strike Hamlin before he gets going The Lone Marshal and Exorcists have Ruthless to oppose Daw's terrifying, and death marshals are cheap long guns to simply sink shots into Daw's DF 5 to burn out his hand Lone Marshal and Pale Rider can chase down Leveticus's Hollow Waifs before you kill him You can get your melee pieces to Parker quickly You can stand toe-to-toe with Von Schill You can stand toe-to-toe with Viktorias

On a related note, I've had occasion to be grateful for the release schedule recently: I'm a new player and the Guild masters I'm most curious about (Lucius, Perdita, Dashel) aren't out yet, but that's given me the opportunity to really learn and enjoy Nellie and Basse's crews. Nellie I would have got into regardless (I love playing pacifist leaders in conflict games!) but Basse I probably would have passed on ... and TOTALLY MISSED the crazy hijinks of Home on the Range stacking from its "+X" factor! I'm not sure it's super good for tournaments, but it's a blast for casual games, especially early on right now when more people are playing in-keyword and a build with synergies like that can stand up well enough.

Aha! Then yes, hit him from every side with your mountain-sized beef ogres!

I think it looks fun for casual Reckoning, at least! No henchmen to target for your Reckoning 2-fer points, so you basically send Lady J in at the end of Round One and smack a bunch of things. Ideally, that makes her the center of attention for round 2, and she's tough to put down. Then in Round 2 you pace yourself, adding spot healing with the Steward, then wait until she's hurting a bit and make some attacks, healing 3 per kill. If they spend all of their round 2 AP on killing Lady J (who presumably gives as good as she gets, especially with counterattack), then they have to kill 3 models round 3, and presumably you've had a good opportunity to bloody up their crew to allow the Marshal and Pale Rider to finish them. Meanwhile the Undercover Reporter is a pretty powerful anti-schemer and can run your other points.

You're fine in terms of rules! Being in contact already doesn't prevent the push: it simply limits (as you note) your push to 0" before you encounter an obstacle. That said, I have a hard time imagining a moment where it would be better to shoulder rush your target than simply attack with your stat 6, 2" engagement Boulder Fist! I like your action efficiency if you want the focus and have a moderate tome in hand (if you have a SEVERE tome, you ought to just hit them with Boulder Fist and declare slow, unless you're outright killing the model!): then you could: 1) Declare Shoulder Rush 1a) Cheat in your tome trigger and declare it 1b) Force the opposing model to take the MV test 1c) Become focused 2) Make a focused Bolder Fist attack Otherwise, it's hard to imagine that the TN X vs MV is going to more reliably deal damage than hitting them with your Boulder Fist!

I was thinking of a list that’s just straight up a Lady Justice charge. I dropped Judge for an Undercover Reporter as a counter-schemer (and Target returner). The idea is to use the Pathfinder’s free Start push to push out the Pale Rider, have the Rider push 5 and place Lady J ahead for something like 8-9”, then give her 2” more with the Pathfinder’s own activation. Adding in the leap, Lady J should be in position to hit something 16-18” from her starting position and still have three actions. I added no prisoners to give her extra movement after a kill, looking to maximize no-charge chaining (for greatsword plus flips) and health regen. The Rider and the undercover reporter present alternative trap targets and the lone marshal and pathfinder take 14” potshots. Basically a wild aggression game that leaves Lady J with 7 stones to protect herself, stone for cards, and guarantee a leap suit and attack early.

So the real advantage is that you spend 6 or 8 stones tying up their Round One AP so that their crew strings out in a line, and then you walk Basse and Sonnia down that line? I'm a little cautious for, say, Reckoning, where they can easily leave traps up at 1 hp and force you to come to them while they have easy access to points in rounds 2/3, though a decent scheme pool might still mitigate that. It's definitely interesting. And I keep hearing that Home on the Range stacks, which REALLY warms the heart of this old Imperial Assault player who liked planning out his deployments with great care. The idea of an extra 5 inches is pretty incredible on any combination of deployment/strat.

What are your opponents doing? Do they tend to eliminate the traps in round one and then find themselves stuck?

The thing with traps is that it seems like they're most effective in round 2 when the engagement has been drawn up: you don't want the opponent to have all of round one to deal with them. But if you don't activate them early in round one, then the opponent can easily get clear of the bunched-up positioning that they're seeking to hold them into. I guess with 5" of Home on the Range and a Follow my Path or two, you can probably close for some Round One work from Basse at least, but that feels like it leaves him exposed, and his defenses depend a fair amount on his dust storm. I can see traps as useful ankle-biters to stop something like a Cursed Idol interact zone, but I'm having trouble mentally visualizing the hold-and-nuke strategy.

Do you guys think Hoffman does better work in Guild or Arcanists? It feels like he uses a ton of in-keyword models, but arcanists have things like Saboteurs and Soulstone Miners. What does the Guild lineup offer to fill out those same spots?

Solkan, do you have a page reference or a ruling that would suggest the superfluous damage is not "ignored" for other game effects? I see you example about Hard to Kill above, but that's a specific rule that would over-ride a general one. It seems like the general rule is that superfluous damage is ignored for game effects, and I'm not clear why that wouldn't apply to this one?

Edit: I’ve been persuaded, as per below comments. “damage suffered” can exceed remaining health because its calculated in step 3 of page 34. Reducing health is ONE consequence of suffering damage, takes place in step 4, and at that point you ignore additional damage FOR REDUCING HEALTH, but that doesn’t change the amount of damage that was suffered.

Most skirmish games have you complete as much of an ability as is possible and ignore things you cannot. So if you heal/focus an unwounded model, you focus it but don’t heal it, but the effect doesn’t fail. Why is this different?

I think you have to treat Innocent Bystander as a hand-miller rather than a true defense. You want to keep these guys safe through pacing and positioning; if someone wants to hit them they're going to hit them. The aura is really just something to pop up if you run up for a scheme and need to survive one hit until the end of the turn or something. Edit: and yeah, let's definitely dream of the day when the no-cheat aura goes enemy only!

Going back to this: Alan Reid's stagger synergy is fine (especially if you manage to fit both him AND Judge in), but I think the more powerful synergy is throwing the Mask onto "One More Question" to have a friendly model add a melee attack. With Lady J's 2" reach and heal-when-killing, this seems like a great way to add attacks from her, PLUS Lady J will get the + flip to her Greatsword swing because she hasn't taken a charge in the activation.

Super helpful, @solkan — thanks!

So if you put a No Prisoners upgrade on the Judge in Guild, can you: 1) Attack a model for lethal damage, declaring the Quick Reflexes trigger. 2) push 2” from be On the Prowl aspect of No Prisoners (and healing a total of 3: 1 from NP and 2 from Unnatural Vigor) 3) make the triggered attack ? the timing on On the Prowl is “After this model kills another model.” Presumably that can interrupt? Obviously the utility would be getting set up for the new attack.

That’s true - it’s once per model. That helps them move up though, I suppose, and be ready for decaying into an engaged scrum round two. Not shre its GOOD, but I’m sure. At its FUN!

So, just for funsies: in theory a list with Lady Justice, 2 Domadores de Cadaveres, and the Pale Rider can: 1) Have the PR use Ride with Me on Lady J to move her up (possible 9" or so, 2" range + 5" push + 50mm base contact) 2) Take two shots with the PR 3) Activate two Domadores for a further 4 shots from the PR 4) Draw more cards with the Judge's free action 5) Have Lady J leap/attack and then attack 3 times. Maybe season with some trap spam for round one shenanigans to keep your targets bunched, engaged, and AP-drained? Wedge Reckoning, anyone?