Raging_Iggy

Has someone tested him?

On paper seems quite brutal as killing crew, cojo/rougarus and miranda into rougaru hit like trucks and become tanky with those upgrades. So, he can have up to 3 rougarus during the game, thanks to Miranda's shapeshift and can sustain their damage through drawing cards efficiently

2 hours ago, Rcarrillo said:

 

Just as I thought it would be. I think this way Misery is really Broken with Candy around. Since every miniatures that activates 4" from here, gets stunned inmediately, without making any check.

 

Basicaly, you place Candy with Pandoras pushes in position, without activating Candy. And if the enemy moves away Candy you can bring her back with Kades "Where is Teddy"

What are your thoughts?

 

It's a really strong strategy that does not relly on a goog hand.

If your opponent plays a good Malifaux, you won't be able to stun with candy more than 2, maybe  3 times in a turn. Candy is a powerful hire, no doubt, but your opponent dictates how much she will be able to harm the enemy

20 hours ago, retnab said:

Just throwing out some more ideas, what if we changed Opportunist to put the enemy on a ?  That'd be pretty worth removing Stunned for.  Alternatively, we could make the 's last all activation, something like:

• Opportunist (X): During this model's activation, it may receive a  to all opposed duels against any models with Stunned or X Condition.  If it does so, at the end of this model's activation end those Conditions on models targeted during this activation.

Opportunist as it is now gives a lot of possibilities, your version is just more "boring", if I can call it so (no offence here obviously). Here's a list of what you can do with opportunist, that with your version you couldn't do anymore:

- use it defensively against focus/fast or even stunned (stunned goes off at end activation, so it's no harm for you if you strip it from an attacking piece)

- strip condition to apply it again and do another ping of damage or another push (with another model, obviously)

- strip single negative conditions from friendly. Your purposed wording would strip all conditions listed in opportunist (so also fast and focus for certain models)

39 minutes ago, kaintxu said:

So, reanimating this topic, I had a game on Friday, and omg it was bad. I did manage to win the game, but this skill totally screwed me over.

So my first card out was an 8, and my second a 10, and things continued like that. I did end up with a 2, 3 and a 5 out, but there were another 10ish cards that were moderate and severe. With this in mind think of this as all those moderate and severe meant that I was also discarding high cards all over the place making my deck weaker. I know it random and that could be bad luck, but really against any other opponent playing differently I would have been really screwed.

This needs to go back to the previous version where you can shuffle the cards into your deck or set at least 1 in and discard one.

Do not agree, I play regularly Dreamer, and fiendish gamble is just good if you pitched a high card. The actual daydreaming is ready to print, and at turn 3 you will notice the difference in deck. Turn 4 and 5 you just start flipping a lot of severes .

I open this topic to discuss about antipathy. Not for changing it, I still think aversion is ok for 6 stones, but I think that i, and others, have just overvalued the Aversion. After some games and thinking as the opponent, I came to conclusion that antipathy can be, more often than one can think, a real weakness that a clever opponent can exploit. The Neverborn player can surely check to avoid this exploits, but can be really difficult to think about all possible variables:

- move, cheat to fail antipathy and reach a scoring place that would never be in range without antipathy (search ruins, breakthrough, and so on, a lot of schemes, nearly all schemes can be done exploiting this weakness)

- charge, cheat to fail, push3, reach a good target at least 5/6 away from aversion (3 push, at least 1 base, 1/2 range) and smash it with the free charge melee action

- also, with possible range attacks reach unreachable targets

- move or charge, and with 3 push having range for support skills/auras

- just leaving easily the close combat and be also able to drop SM

I'm at first a Pandora/Dreamer player, and the only time I thought that my opponent's list was a really good combination of counters, was against ressers. This combination wasn't nice to have against: ruthless (upgrades, seamus), mourner (negates my ruthless - often against ressers I would pick rider+carver), carrion emissary (aura that negates soulstones)

Even if Matsu is a great model, in fae has little sinergy. Aeslin gives you a lot more in fae, imho. Furthermore, they fullfill different roles, so it's a bit difficult to compare

It's clear that something must be done with self loathing to fix these buggy problems, i' ll expand a bit what i've already said in the other topic:

I see a few possible solutions, that IMHO can adjust these issues:

1) a little boring but i would call it "safe" solution: making self loathing do the damage track + conditions. Something like this: " Choose one of the target's non-Shockwave Attack Actions. This action's effect is the effect of the chosen Action. Consider only damage and conditions. "

Here i would say that my wording should be improved (i actually don't have an idea of how to improve it) because it's not very clear on what conditions to consider. Example: Taelor's Relic Hammer deals 3/4/6 and ignores Shielding. My idea is that Pandora's self loathing should do 3/4/6 and not count this shielded. However, if an attack action states 3/3/4 damage and injured+1, Pandora should do 3/3/4 and injured +1.

This solution solves quite all the issues but the once per activation (like Seamus gun). However, in Seamus example, Pandora will be able to copy the damage, but not the "ignore hard to wound".

2) the "compromise" solution: Something like this: " Choose one of the target's non-Shockwave Attack Actions.  When checking if this action meets the requirements, consider the text in italics printed in the target's action as if it is printed in this action. This action's effect is the effect of the chosen Action."

This solution resolves lots of problems, but maybe there are still issues with other non master models. Resolves the one per activation issue. Leaves Pandora with the really nice effects that give versatility to Self loathing ( like those action that do damge and pushes - example: Rougaru's action)

3) completely rework Self loathing. The idea that had @Angelshard is wonderful (1/2/3 damage track + 1 damage for every condition on the target) but i fear that is a real GAMBLE. So here is just up to Wyrd. Really can't in 1 week test enought, sadly.

The Carver is ok, even if he misses something. It isn't an awesome model and probably not worth 10 ss, but will see play in pandora or Dreamer at least for his ruthless and focus denial. Moreover sometimes you could find useful his area damage ( with Dreamer) or for scheme marker denial. Probably could go down to 9 ss, or should get an adjustment like regen+1/+2 or 2/3/5 damage track instead 2/2/4. But don't know if devs have time for him, as he is far from being like other no-take models

Sorry for dubble post, just it came to me an idea for self loathing text:

It could apply the damage track (as m2e)  + apply all conditions listed in target's action effect.

1 hour ago, Angelshard said:

The more I look at woes the more I come to the conclusion that the only issue that's really left in the crew is self loathing. 

I love the concept behind it, but it opens the door for so many issues. 

Using it on Zoraida for extra obeys. 

Giving Jack Daw his own curse upgrades. 

Using Seamus gun on himself three times in a row. 

Burying Thoon on his own trigger (requires him to have a tome in final duel total.) 

Using analyze weakness on Hoffman. 

Send a death marshal back to his deployment zone. 

Giving any model with challenge challenge on itself. 

These are just off the top of my head and doesn't take into account what may be released later down the line. 

I'd love to see it changed to "target suffers 0/1/1 damage +1 for each condition on the target. Trigger for stunned, staggered, burning and poison." 

This attack would require a bit more setup but could be devastating and personally I find the idea that the damage increases as the target suffers goes very well with Pandora. 

I agree with you about the feeling that self loathing is buggy sometimes.

Don't actually agree with the change with damage depending on conditions. I mean, it's a cool idea, but I think that could be a hard nerf to Pandora's damage, with no gain on other things like more conditions, more control, and so on. Actually you can put conditions on opponent, but let's say that 2 conditions is what you can expect. This means that you must prepare a lot the Pandora's turn if you want to use self loathing, because she will not be capable alone (and neither candy, because she will activate late, usually). I just feel that at this point a change like that needs to much testing to work properly. But really a cool idea, I must say.

I think that the possible solutions could be:

- make pandora/candy pay the test in italics. This could solve some issues. Probably give a little buff/adjustment to compensate the nerf.

- change again like it was in m2e, only damage track. Probably give Pandora stat 7 again. Probably less cool effect and obviously a lot less versatile.

I only see these two solutions at this point.

Moreover, I would add a thing(different), about the Crushing Ego trigger:

I find this trigger a bit cluncky, difficult to make it do something unless the opponent has 3/4 strong triggers, and generally just slowing the game (thinking of all possible triggers in play, valuing if it's ok or better crow trigger, valuing how much probability I have to have a good opponent trigger. Also the opponent, if flips a suite that I can use with good value, starts thinking if he should cheat.

Normally I just prefer to give with changeling crows (if I have) and spread 2/3 slows

What do you think?

I tested today for second time this new version, and I must say that aura 6 is ok, and I'm really enjoying the control Pandora has. The ping is nice but when it comes to scheming the 2 push is really great and opens a lot of possibilities for her control game. Imho, she's is in good spot now

About self loathing beeing a bit "buggy". Some people think that using self loathing on obey things to bypass restrictions, or using it on skills like Seamus's flintlock ecc...ecc..is a bit "buggy" or feels bad. I think that it can stay like that, but I also have a solution to give if developers would like to change it: just add to Self loathing the nerf " you must pay any costs in italics " so all " once per activation " have to be considered (or, if it can be misread, even a Faq). Than you could give a slight buff in the form of a trigger or +1 stat somewhere to compensate the nerf.

I think that changeling are ok (they also don't have a bonus). If one wants to stop all the chains (even in others crew/factions), than you should solve the problem at the base and change the rule for "once per activation"

1 hour ago, Hawkoon said:

They are a decent counter if your opponent declare a shockwave/pulse/aura heavy master though, like Von Schill

Yeah, but I think probably the opponent will just engage Angel, for example. I find him ok piece, but sniper is really really situational (I see it as a strong play only for a sidearm 16" shot with coordinated attack trigger) since you want a + on damage in most situations, and Angel doesn't have a good disengaging action/ability. Tuco is the one I like more, and bloodwr. and Maurice the two that I like less. I don't know, maybe a MI6 instead of 5 on Angel could help him escaping a bit better, that's the main concern on him.

I'm reviving this topic, since we have 2 more weeks for testing models.

Do you think that these models will see the field, or they need some adjustments/buffs?

I'm in line with what @Hawkoon said in a post above, when I'm building a list, my choice is always to not take these models because I have better things to take.

4 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

@Raging_Iggy 

Page 33:

Additionally, multiple models that have the same Action (or Ability) with a once per Activation can each use that effect once per Activation.

This action refers to the action on that specific model. So when changeling 2 activates and uses the same action its a different same action that hasn't targeted any model yet and can target any model. 

I've read again that one, thanks for pointing. I was thinking that rule was for only italics text, but now that i read it again i agree.

@trikk @Angelshard

are you sure that is going like that? there is an example in rules, or other discussion in the forums?

As for my interpretation, these 2 sentences are very different:

- Once per activation. (in italics)

- "This action cannot target the same model more than once per activation"

I explain: the italics part is clearly model dependant. The other, as we play in our club, means what is written, and in the puppetmaster example the meaning is: " The action named Puppetmaster cannot target a model more than once per activation " . So in in the same activation, wichever model takes the action cannot use it more than once against the same target

@Domin

you can't "bounce" between changellings with JLY-Puppetmaster-JLY-puppetmaster and so on, because puppetmaster says "cannot target the same model more than once per activation". You are effectively in the same activation, so no more than 1 puppetmaster

I thought that the topic was "Thoon's frozen throphy" and not "Zoraida's obeys". If we are talking of impossible ways of making 11 obeys on Thoon, than there is nothing to discuss imho. 

If we are discussing if frozen trophy is an oK trigger, or needs an adjustment, than I would say that as pointed before and also by other community members there are two options:

- if there are enought counters, the trigger is ok. I would say that counters are those that remove, in an efficient way, the ice pillar. I would not call a counter the 1 action that removes destr.terrain (you will waste 2 actions, if played correctly) or killing Thoon (IR on him and you will never be able to kill him fast). Mad Dog is 100% a hard counter.

- if the efficient counters are really rare, than fr.throphy should be adjusted

Didn't tested Euripides and/or Thoon, but I'll share what I think about it:

Frozen throphy trigger is actually very, very scary. It hasn't been changed because I think that there are very low numbers on euripedes playtests, and Thoon is not worth 9+1 stones in other crews (except Zoraida probably). However, the Doppler mimic is not an issue at all, because you need a high card with the correct suite. What I find that is really scary, is Thoon's frozen throphy hitting and triggering 2 times in turn 2 or 3. The best is when you are already engaged, because you can bury/kill the model you are engaged with, than charge straight against another big target and bury him. This is difficult to counter, and expecially in some games like reckoning, where the opponent has more big targets and less models, I can see this trigger as a game winner. And it will trigger, because it's on a henchman, and euripedes has 7 cards, and because of all other card management they have.

Maybe a high WP save, like 14/15, should be allowed, to not need him too hard. 

The normal removal with 1 action of destructible terrain is not really a counter, but I haven't a list of how effective is each faction at removing markers. If someone has time to provide it, should be helpful, because if there are many counters, than the trigger could be ok as it is.

16 minutes ago, Rift said:

Must say, I've been looking at her, and pure stats wise she seems epic, Im just having a bit of a hard time match her with the right master. So far, Zoraida looks like the best choice for her.

 

Like i said, Ive been mainly focused on Dreamer....not so sure she'll work better with him as opposed to teddy.

They are different and have different sinergies, so really depends on the whole crew comp. I used Matsu with Dreamer, always liked him/her. Obviously took off teddy (dislike 2 flurry in the same crew comp). They are a lot different however, so really depends on what you need to do with those 9/10 points

Matsu has great sinergy with Dreamer's summons because of the WP pulse that spreads distracted. That pulse, both helps you dropping stitcheds or other things, and at the same time protects your summons

A roundup, speaking as a Dreamer/Pandora player (but also tested a bit of titania):

- rider: yes he's 11 ss, but with IR he has all things that you want from a beater (barring self-heal and cond.removal). Awesome help in mobility for your crew. I just say " wow " when I look at the model. The 11 point cost balances him, giving him some weaknesses in certain schemes

- candy: really fearsome aura, good survavibility, good attacks, good flexibility (can give fast, or heal models)

- hinamatsu: even if he has lots of counters (severe terrain, terrifying, not mobile when in close combat, armor piercing enemies), the high movement and the ability to shred not armored enemies thanks to + flip (that counters manipulative/serene), onslaught+henchman, and flurry, makes him very good. Also he has good versatility (lure) and sinergy (WP pulse for Dreamer's summon or Pandora's misery. Moreover he can be moved by the rider for very long range coverage.

- rougaru: I think 8 points is really good for this model, it's really really a nice model in Titania's crew, and the perfect carrier for IR

- stitched: just a gamble here because I didn't tested the new ability, but "fiendish gamble" seems really a swing in stitched's power

- Serena: I really like this model, the heal+condition removal is gold as bonus action, she is durable thanks to demise, and can hit for a 6 with focus.

I would say that the Emissary is obviously not terrible, but terribly balanced with other emissaries. The bonus action is what I'm pointing at:

- we have useless bonus aura

- other emissaries have all a more useful aura, some of them have really great sinergy ( carrion, arcane, brutal )

- some of the other emissaries have also a second, strong, bonus action: carrion, hodgepodge

@Mad Mojo @Angelshard

Auras, as I read, do not work like that. I quote from rulebook:

Auras are not cumulative. If a model would be affected 
by multiple Auras of the same name (i.e., if the aura would 
change its game state in some way), then it is only affected 
by one such Aura of its controller’s choice

This means, in your above example, that if pandora spreads 2 times slow and the targets are both within 8 of her AND baby kade, you will effectively ping 2 times. The rule text says "would be affected" and " if the aura would change its game state in some way". These two sentences are key, because if the opponent choice was Pandora's aura in the first ping, than he can't chose again the Pandora's aura for the second attack, because the aura can't already affect the model (once per activation), and so it doesn't even count in the auras that can alter in some way that model's game state.