INXVI

I second the Tangle Shadows, I used the action against Myranda on a tournament on Sunday, sure Myranda is now next to Lilith, but DF 7, a potential nearby beater and ML 7 on Lilith herself is she needs to put on some damage is great. Needing the masks really put me off for a while, but I was still learning about card and stone efficiency, now I use it a lot.

It also helps that Sandeep is quite card hungry as a crew, so even hitting the 9 of masks TN isn't impossible.

I'm not familiar with how Mages work, like the upgrades for example, but dropping Aeslin in, with Malifaux Provides or FGF could work, drop the 0 to cause a Neg to CA actions and cause a bit of damage where neccessary. 

I think you're being too critical mate, the other two have raised some really good points.

Firstly, who's to say Collodi needs to kill the crew? Built in slow, ability to steal AP, turn his crew against him, dictate his crews efficiency. Plus, doing damage overtime is still effective, just because Collodi might not outright kill 2 models or even 1 model a turn, he can still cause a lot of damage.

It seems like dropping Sandeep is strong, if summoning is the problem, remove them from the equation. Sure Nekima will die, but it will take a dedicated attack, save a high card and a stone to help out. As you say, killing the Gamin will use up AP, but so will killing Nekima, apply early pressure and soak up his hand, a good hand can only get you so far, it's how you spend those cards that counts.

In terms of Pandora, CA6/7 against WP 5/4, means that even something like a 10 of crows could lead to a paralyzed enemy model. If Pandora needs a model paralyzed, she can stone, shutting a key model down for a turn is worth it.

Just thought I'd do a quick overview of a tournament game I had today.

So, the tournament rules restricted us to Wave 1 models only, but any upgrades from any Wave could be used. It was great, without Nekima, Lilitu, Hooded Rider etc, to see how other models faired up. 

I decided to run summoning Pandora (with the stratergy of Ply) and it was crazy! Bad Juju had already tied up a good few models, before Pandora dropped 2 sorrows and a poltergeist just before, into a mass of models. At that point, my opponents crew had lost a lot, passing a WP 7 VS WP duel on a negative, or suffer 3 damage, is difficult to take. It was surprising how little the reliance on conditions is, when Ply is in the pool.

Even Baby Kade pulled his weight, dropping Fingers from full wounds, to just 1 left (he was the entourage target too) and even though his lure is only CA 5, the added WP Duel and placement shenanigans, it went pretty well.

I guess the experience, not only made me value Wave 1 models a lot more, Silurids and Beckoners are great in the right scenario, but Pandora's summoning engine doesn't even need a WP based or condition based crew, to get started.

10 hours ago, saxcloud said:

Well but depressione give the possibility to get the right trigger for sure, helping with wp test on pandy...

The issue most people have with Depression, is that although you can help get the trigger (drawing no crows for Voices Pandora is always a possibility though) Incite is such a strong action, that losing a potential 2 moodswings a turn isn't as effective. If you can or need to paralyse 3 models a turn, it's great, but how often is that guarenteed to be possible? If you have the option for, say, Kade to carry it, it gives a good CA 5 action to help with extra control, and Misery damage, but Pandora can happily carry 3 upgrades, so throwing Depression into the mix can complicate things. It's not to say you shouldn't take it, your experiences and value for the upgrade may be more positive than others. 

I like the idea of summoning dora, dropping a mask, but that may be too card intensive, with 1 mask dropped, and a potential 3 10+ cards if your flips don't work out.

What scheme pools does everyone like for Dreamer? I haven't ran him in a good month or so, and I'm starting to miss him 😂 I've used him in Symbols before (I know Punish is in the pool, but Madness' are fast and my Daydreams are usually killed for Masks anyway, plus 4 summons are enforcers.) 

I love him in Guarded Treasure, the option to summon in an enforcer to score is great. The model may not interact, but the squishy models can get that part done.

I imagine that Public Demonstration could work, a combination of Lilitu's lures, daydream push, Dreamer push and fast, it could be achievable.

Breakthrough I like, summoning a couple of Madnesses is never a bad choice if needed, so I can see Surround Them being a possibility too (it does seem a little harder to me, it's only 2 markers, but the area you can drop them is reduced when compared to breakthrough)

I've tried him in Ply once before too. Once more, lures and pushes can help with placement, and having a summoned Stitched Together, drop a model with GI to help you score the stratergy that turn, feels amazing.

There's a lot more that can be said, but when is the Dreamer your go to guy? I usually find myself running Lilith, but I want to change that.

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

Behold My Glory would work much better than FgF, otherwise there's nothing stopping them from attacking other models in range or getting carried away by a Kentauroi to do other things.

I was talking about Lilith moreover than Titania, somebody already raised the idea of Titania and her usages, I just offered an alternative. Titania would probably do it better, but Lilith has rooted to keep things in place (assuring the Kentauroi is rooted too)

Lilith's trees could also help keep things to a more confined area. It is not to say they will trap the opponent, but LoS blocking and half movement isn't bad at all.

4 hours ago, le_sphinx said:

Damn.. I missed it as well. One time I swapped 1k faces on Coppelius into FgF. My conscience start to eat me.

Don't worry, its not as bad as the time I ran Lynch with both Limited upgrades (it was only my like 4th ever game of Malifaux in my defence 😂 also against a new player)

Just a thought, I might try this myself, but if you can get Lilith in range, use Tangle Shadows on the Master, then target Nekima as the friendly within 6', drop her into the mass of summons with FgF and cause havoc.

I know Resser masters have higher WP's than the average master, but if they are preoccupied dropping those severes on summons, or other flips, Lilith could make it happen.

A thousand faces says "Attach the named upgrade, following the usual restrictions for attaching Upgrades at the start of the game"

I'm not sure when 'The Start Of The Game' is exactly, but my guess it is pre-draw phase, iniative flip etc, so after crews have been decided and set in stone.

I guess, that would mean that the restriction of 'Enforcer Only' applies when attached at the beginning of the game, and therefore applies here too.

Worth a shot mate, it would be insane on Nekima against certain crews 😊

5 hours ago, Sweet Tooth said:

Apologies for moving at the pace of an Ice Golem with this followup @INXVI. I've been drowning in work and life seems to be filled with everything but Malifaux these days :( I've finally got some time to sit down and put thoughts on the page so bear with me here. I'm not great at battle reports (yet), so this will be more game highlights than anything else. 

The Crew I ended up taking was:
50 SS Neverborn Crew - Melee 'Dora
Pandora + 5 Pool
 - The Box Opens (2)
 - Fears Given Form (1)
 - Aether Connection (1)
Barbaros (10)
Mysterious Emissary (10)
- Conflux of Sorrow (0)
Lilitu (7)
Baby Kade (6)
- Thousand Faces (1)
Iggy (5)
 - Malifaux Provides (1)
Mysterious Effigy (4)
 

Game 1
Pandora vs Somer
His Crew: Somer, Trixie, 2 slop haulers, 2 of Somer's skeeters, and 8 bayou gremlins. 
Pool: Public Execution, Eliminate the Leadership (both), Vendetta (me), Set Up (him), 2 others that we didn't pick
Deployment: Close. I deployed at the close line, the opponent setup his crew along the 6" line.

This was not a great start to my day. The opponent fielded 14 models at the start of the game compared to my 7. This was also my first game against gremlins and I'm told it was an odd list for the opponent to bring.

Turn 1: The opponent won initiative and immediately dropped a skeeter into the center of my poorly clustered group of Pandora, Iggy, the effigy, and Barbaros. Since Iggy was the closest and immediately engaged, I lost my chance to have him go after Trixie for Vendetta. Pandora and Barbaros moved up the field in an attempt to go after Somer but were taking numerous shots from the bayou gremlins. After a certain point I started pushing Pandora away in an attempt to keep her alive. The rest of my crew was flanking the sides of the board, but not accomplishing much.

Turn 2: First activation, Somer targets Pandora and attempts to have us discard our hands.  I denied the first attempt but couldn't stop the second. So we played turn 2 with no cards in hand while nearly every gremlin could bayou two card and go reckless. Pandora eventually died that turn, which scored 3 points for the opponent's Eliminate the Leadership. Barbaros was barely hanging on to life, but managed to kill a gremlin, so we stayed neutral for Public Execution. 

Turn 3: The rest of my crew was massacred against a gremlin gunline (never expected to see that happen) and Trixie got cozy with Barbaros to drop a few scheme markers, letting the opponent score for Set Up.
 
End of the game it was Neverborn 0 - Gremlins 7 (1 for Public, 3 for Set Up, 3 for Eliminate)

Overall, not a great match up for me. My biggest takeaway from this game is that a dedicated assault (however obnoxious it was) will bring down anyone. And to be fair, my opponent went on to win third place in the tourney (out of 16 folks). I was clearly up against a skilled player.

I'll be back tomorrow to post Game 2 & 3!

Would love any feedback or thoughts on how to counter a Gremlin swarm. Thanks!! :D

Thanks for the follow up :D I know how it feels to have less time for Malifaux recently 😂

Anyway, my local Gremlin player also loves to spam a good Gremlin gunline, Skeeters are a pain too. Last time I faced a list like that, I think I tanked Nekima + Doppel into the masses to reduce his activation control. It was Ply however, so I wasn't getting shot to pieces, to the extent you did.

Luring either Pandora up the field, or Luring your Vendetta target towards you, with Lilitu (and Kade to an extent) is always a good idea too, with the 2 lures, you could also have brought the Gremlins to you, Ca 7 against a lower WP is always nice, it seems you would have to top deck it Turn 2, but there are always high cards present 😊

Did you drop Barbaros' challenge aura up to soak some hits? Gremlins having to pass a WP duel for each shot, would definitely help.

It seems that the Emmisary would have worked pretty well in the pool, specifically for denial. His built in trigger to remove conditions (Shed Blood for example) would put pressure on your opponent to kill more, or not score due to your limited model count. Also, if he was still around (and had range) be could have shot poor Barbaros (or other present model) to remove all markers within the pulse, so always bear that in mind :)

The main thing though, is that you can only learn from experience, as you said, it was your first time playing Gremlins, so reviewing what you did right, wrong and what you could have improved upon, is a good way to identify things to work on. I do it all the time, the tournament I had at the weekend is one example, a spare of the moment decision, found me not cheating with my Rider against a Nurse, to then discover he had 1 card left, a crow for paralyze 😂

Kicking myself, but I'll remember to never make that mistake again, I was saving the card to score my final Show Of Force VP in case Barbaros was charged.

Keep us updated though mate, it's always interesting to listen to other players experiences.

7 hours ago, Domin said:

Warped Reality upgrade can only be attached to Neverborn Minion of Neverborn Enforcer - so the mercenaries are out. 

Damn.  :( probably should have read them properly before looking for abstract synergies.

Just a thought, but what Merceneries would The Dreamer (+ Serena) love to turn into a Nightmare to abuse?

Edit: Warped Reality cannot be attached to non-Neverborn Minions and Enforcers.

@Tendrepie It's alright, there's a lot of rules in Malifaux, so don't worry about misreading it too much, all part of learning the game

@Sweet Tooth I agree with @H4ml3t his 6' range isn't the furthest, but he doesn't exactly need to be in the opponents face. Dropping him in Ply is great, it takes pressure off of hitting severes, or getting models engaged to Ply. 

His ability to heal from the hazardous terrain he creates, will help if he does take a bit of a beating too.

Also, keep us updated mate, I'd love to hear how you do. I've started playing tournaments lately (just small 10+ ones) and it's just reinforced my love for the game, even if I sometimes take a beating. 😂

So I'd love to hear how it turns out for you.

16 minutes ago, Tendrepie said:

Also worth mentioning that the 'conflux of sorrow' on the Emissary is kind of amazing.

Being able to copy any non-master ability is really fun and can give you just the piece of redundancy you need to get things done:

Borrow misery from sorrow, martyr from Iggy, lure from lilitu, more ice pillar, or whatever you fancy or need the most in the moment!

And, as icing on the cake, +you get a 0 for another source of 'mood swing'

Remember that The Emmissary copies abilities, not actions, so whilst you can copy Misery, Martyr etc, you cannot copy Lilitu's Lure or The Cyclops (0) actions.

But on another note, you can summon a changeling, it isn't too difficult to get off as a summon, and Changelings are great models. Copying actions with good damage spreads, or useful abilities built in is pretty good for a 4ss, potential summon. Just be cautious that they don't copy suites, so Lilitu's lure will be impossible to get off.

@Sweet Tooth Glad I could help mate

I'm pretty sure you need LoS to the master for Rapid Acceleration.

Also, it makes sense using the cyclops for cover, I'm not a fan of the 'place in base contact' but maybe I just play too much Lilith 😂 it's still a great choice non the less.

In terms of The Rider, I've used him a lot since the errata, mainly because a mate of mine has been lending him to me. For 10 stones, he can get a good lot done, just be careful on the earlier turns, because he can drop to a dedicated assualt. His 6' push can help Pandora, or other models in your crew with mobility, allowing for a potential 19' threat range (without regarding terrain), which is great for getting to those faster models trying to get to your deployment. With Symbols, he's a good at grabbing late game markers if nobody else is available, he can also drop tough models quite easily around Turn 4, with min damage 5! And even the min 4 on turn 3 is brilliant. Slamming him into an Entourage target isn't a bad idea, use his board coverage to your advantage, even if you use him as a minion hunter, denying potential VP is great. 

I'm not the most experienced Pandora player, but I'll try and help you out.

Q1 - Barbaros is great with Pandora, Challenge can be a real pain when your opponent is already trapped in Pandora's bubble. Plus his built in pushes from the trigger can help keep enemies near Pandora, or equally to push them away if you feel uncomfortable. However, your opponent will eventually drop them, if they feel the need to. This will be pretty good for Symbols, as Punish The Weak is an option, but your oppenent will stear clear when they clock onto what you're doing. Lilitu are even Kade to some extent, can help you lock them down. With Public Execution, you will have to be cautious of Pandora dying, but she can wrecking ball into your opponent to score and hopefully thin their forces. It could even work for Ply too, they can't just leave Pandora amist their crew, just be careful not to kill too many models, otherwise you may struggle to score late game VP from Ply.

Q2 - The Emmissary is a great choice, nice damage spread, great triggers and the ability to disrupt movement with his markers which heal him. He is great in Ply, for enemy condition removal. He can stop 'Search The Ruins', 'Inescapable Trap', 'Set Up' from his discard markers trigger, but do note it will discard your markers too. He is pretty durable too, with the option to summon changelings, at a push, which can scheme run or simply be annoying. 

Onto your crew, I don't know what you have in your arsenal, but thats fine.

Drop the Wretch for an effigy, if u own one, 'Rapid Acceleration' can really help Pandora get the extra mobility she wants with this style. Also, 4ss for Armor +1 and HtK is pretty nice.

I feel like the Cyclops is a bit too easy to drop, his ice pillars are nice though, they could help prevent a devestating charge or block in an enemy for your crew to attack or even ply off. Personally, I'd throw in Mr Graves, with 1k faces, 3/4/6 with the potential positive is great, he can push Pandora 6' up the board, or displace an opponent. Also, if 'keeping the peace' comes up, its another nice WP duel for your opponent. 

Kade is a good model, in the right situation, a potential 5 minimum damage is insane, but Kade is kind of weak. 6 wounds is low, DF 7 is above average, but DF will only get you so far. Keep him in if you like, but I feel like you could drop him for the Doppelganger, for versatility and potential scheme running, don't mind me, copying lure for displacement etc. 

If you don't fancy running the Cyclops, you could drop him (and maybe Kade) for The Emmissary or Rider, plus the Primordial Magic (extra WP duel, can deny scheme runners coming down the side for Breakthrough, Symbols, Surround them) and he can count as a scheme marker, for Set Up, Surround Them etc. Then, you could put in the Effigy with the spare stones, and drop the Wretch for another scheme runner (its a shame u don't have Madness, I have to borrow mine from a mate, since they are gold dust to get a gold of) 

We can assume that all schemes will come up once, so there's definitely variety. Hopefully my advice will help out, I wasn't sure if you wanted your list expanding upon, so sorry if not.

Hope this helps

With what you currently own, you could focus on lowering WP, that way Candy can use her CA actions more efficiently. The Widow Weaver has her web markers which will lower the WP of models around them, combined with the Insidious Madness' shot action, you could really harm your opponents overall WP. This will lead to your opponent having difficulty passing WP duels (manipulative and Horror from Weaver and her attack actions) 

If teaching players about WP manipulation seems a bit off putting, you could simply play with Stitched and Bad Juju, nice damage spreads, introduction to multiple rules and abilities (hard to kill, regeneration, hard to wound) then as time progresses, throw in the madness for scheme running (an introduction into incorporeal models and a faster model) then maybe the Widow Weaver to teach them how models can manipulate others and shutdown others.

@meows0r did a great overview, I wouldn't mind adding Lilith to symbols.

Her ability to Root or Tangle Shadows an enemy who's approaching a marker, or displacing a minion for example seems pretty good. She has great mobility and good board control in general, trees for coverage and if really needed, an accurate melee action. Both other masters do it well too.

Something I thought up of for Wagon, was Summoning Dreamer, give the rider fast (requires Warped Reality though) so he can push twice turn 1, he can summon enforcers, with Lilitu & Lelu being common turn 1 summons in general, which helps for Guarded Treasure. Serena summons back, so depending on deployment, after summoning back, she can make it back to the centerline. Rider is still great after pushing the Wagon, he's fast and can use the Wagon as cover for the first couple of turns, before getting his buffs. Lilith might do it better, but Dreamer may be great too

@Fixxer

Got to say, you've wrote a nice overview of Warped Reality on certain models, which is great, but as @santaclaws01 said, I've been using it, specifically to pass damage off with The Dreamer's DF Trigger. I've also tried it with a Waldgeist before, still needs some playtesting on both though to see how much it's worth

Sounds good to me mate

I started playing Malifaux a year after my local store first stocked it, so my experience is also less when compared to my mates. But, I'm approaching the 1 year mark and I'm no longer getting destroyed, games are much closer and each move is crucial. It's all the learning process mate, you will see yourself improve and eventually you'll beat the Neverborn player 😊 

I'm a Dreamer player (I've had about 8 games, but hopefully my experience so far can help out)

If Dreamer had summoned 3 nightmares, then Lelu + Lilitu, that would put him on Waking 3 (assuming he used his 0 action twice) that means his summoned models won't be healing, they come up with 1 wound so if you can put pressure on them quickly, your opponent may feel inclined to burn resources to stop you raking up the strategies condition. Also, it looks like his crew lacked nightmares to begin with, meaning that any damage The Dreamer took, was either stoned/taken on the chin, or passed off onto summons, so dropping them first seems like a good option. This could work two ways, by passing off damage, you are killing models for your strategy, but also making your opponent think, especially because Eliminate The Leadership was in the pool, meaning he would have to play a bit more conservatively with placement, LoS etc.

But this is all based on assumptions, that he was passing off damage, hiding and just pumping out summons.

It looks like the rest of his crew caused anarchy, the rider can cause a lot of hurt later on in the game, so dropping early damage on him, meaning The Dreamer would have to manage his waking and positioning if he wants to heal him up. Same with Nekima, her DF 5 and lack of armor or HtK means she can't stand up to an array of shots. 

Sonnia would be great against The Dreamer, especially with his summoning upgrade, you can target his weaker minions and utilize the blasts to indirectly damage The Dreamer or his Nightmares that he would otherwise pass damage onto. Samael and other condition based models dropping burning onto his models wouldn't be a bad idea, The Dreamer can remove them, but it requires them to be within 6' and he needs a tomes (given its a low one, but it reinforces this idea of bundling his models together)

Hope this helps

I think I might throw him into my next game, hopefully the pool screams Box Pandora.

If he is cautious of her FGF range, and manages to grab a few eyes, the potential to heal Pandora 2/3/5, potentially half her total wounds for a 0 and an eye seems great. He won't exactly be a priority target with Pandora causing mass destruction, and if things get a bit risky, he can dart off for some mid game scheme running. Combined with extra horror duel damage from his ability and the potential to gunk up the bubble with Alps, definitely seems fun and effective if it goes off.

Might throw in the Widow Weaver for good measure 😂

It isn't fool proof, but it adds to the death ball nicely.

I've been trying them with The Dreamer, throw on Twisted Reality (so not the cheapest combo 😂) and you have a Armor +1, Regen +1 7 wound model, that heals from Dreamer, and from a 0. He can also then tank hits for the Dreamer, and a 2/4/5 isn't bad at all, and that's before considering the Brilliance being dished out. 

Personal Puppet is nice on them when u run Collodi, 1 damage (which gets healed up from Regen when he next activates) and he gets to take a swing.

I've ran one with Lilith a few times, same with Pandora (back when I didn't own much) and they are great models, pretty tanky, nice damage track, even terrifying comes into play every once and a while

@Domin

Cheers for the input mate

Definately going to be trying the Changeling Final Debt at one point, it is such a powerful attack if the cards and flips are on your side. 

In my 1st tournament, I dropped a full wound Bishop with 2ap, so throwing out a potential, couple more would be good fun.

@so_diogenes

This was more in the past, maybe we didn't have much time or something. It is usually only for casual play anyway, never in a serious or tournament based atmosphere. But yeah I know what you mean, I don't mind my opponent knowing my master in casual, that way if they throw out a counter, I can probably learn from it and retaliate in the future. It isn't the right way to play, and I usually don't think about it but there's a few factors that impact it, for example if I'm dedicating time to learn a master.

I'll probably stop that if it ever comes up from now on, I didn't think much off it, but thanks for pointing it out mate