spooky_squirrel

They generate suits off of the Fated players' flips and cheats.

So if your NPC has a trigger on their action and the Fated has a on their flip, the Fatemaster character can declare their trigger.

2 hours ago, DarthBrooks said:

It just felt wrong to me that adding a benefit to a spell ( Hey look, I can attack now instead of not attack ) would lower the target number of a spell instead of raise it. 2/4/5 is a solid spread ( 1/2/3 raised by 3 steps ), or you could add a variety of other effects depending on your immuto options. And you still have the bonus of being able to raise your range with spells. It seems like a lot of flexibility/power for one immuto to offer.

It still ends up having a TN of 7, on top of being resisted by Wp (so when targeting a Fatemaster character also need to beat their Wp + Rank). Let's say your AV is a respectable 5 (to cast), and you're facing a Zombie Swordsman. Normally, just to get the spell off you need a 2, but because the Wp + Rank of the ZS is 11, you need a 6 and to be at 1 yard from that ZS just to tie it.

Compare that to your group's brawler with the Rail Hammer (similar damage spread). Let's say that their AV is also a 5 to put you on equal footing on TN. They get to hit the ZS for any 6+, which is roughly four times more likely (33 success cards versus 9).

The thing is, as I mentioned before, the magic user doesn't want to be in close combat. Zombie Swordsmen force you to defend on a negative flip against an 11, and they can flurry (attack 3 times for 2 AP). If you don't go defensive (which costs a card and AP) or do something similar, you're much more likely to get hit than not, and that Zombie Swordsman is likely to chew straight through you. Your starting gear and Pursuit focus is about spells and spellcasting.

Where you (as a magic user) don't want to be in close combat, the brawler does. Their starting equipment includes armor. Their low level Pursuit Talents are combat oriented. Guards reduce damage on a defensive trigger, Scrappers get to the fight faster, Drudges don't start with armor unless they took a pneumatic limb, but they can outright ignore critical wounds/passing out from critical wounds (or gain 2 wounds to their profile). The magic user gets better with their spell, to include potentially getting the suit built in (which lets you hit as often as the others).

So not only is the brawler much more likely to hit in close combat, they also don't care about the Zombie Swordsman's attacks in the same way that your magic user does. The ZS might flurry and hit the guard 3 times and do a total of 0 damage. Where it can flurry and drop a magic user in a single round, it needs two or three rounds to get the Drudge to the point where the Drudge is taking critical effects that would normally knock Fated characters out of the fight--and the Drudge can ignore those effects unless they involve instant death. The Scrapper, just for charging in and swinging a couple of times might have increased their Df value (attack trigger for their Pursuit), making it easier for them to avoid being hit back.

Also, something of note with the narrative @EnternalVoid took the time to draw up:

Throughout it are opportunities for Fated characters of various backgrounds to make observations. A city-dwelling Fated might not notice that they're not travelling at a hard march, but both the M&SU Overseer and the Condor Rails Drudge will have reason to--they know what someone working hard looks like. A Fated criminal might have reason to scrutinize the guide, after all, they themselves may have been a bandit that had made use of the old "pretend to be a guide, lead them to an ambush" trick themselves. A mercenary, pioneer, or academic might ask to see their planned route on a map, then notice that they're taking a strange route. The mercenary might even realize that there's several areas that someone could set up an ambush in.

Which combined with the other skill checks involved means that the epilogue may feature Fated characters picking up skills that aren't immediately useful in combat flips--because it wasn't the combat alone that hurt them badly, it was the terrain, the betrayal, the weather, and the failure to realize they were being stalked by members of a cannibal cult. Hell, if they've never been to the Ten Peaks before, this was probably their first time dealing with the Cult and Ice Gamin--they might end up spending their single earned skill rank on something that would help them be better prepared for running into strange denizens. Whichever Fated completed a Fate Step has motive to not min-max for a specific kind of encounter, because they just got soundly flogged, and they're going to be dropping that trait increase into something that'll shore up one of their weak areas.

Thank you @EnternalVoid for describing in more detail the tools I was hinting at. This covers the tools that are built into the system that can make things much more challenging (and really, people wondering about how things like magic can be balanced need to look at stuff like this on top of counterspelling). Part of the reason I left the cheat fate mechanic out of the probability crunching was so that I wouldn't have to go into detail on things like Minions+ spending their allocated Fate point(s) or using Focus or Defensive tactical actions to cover all the bases.

3 hours ago, DarthBrooks said:

I understand how the immuto works ( I think ). It just seems too powerful to completely counteract the disadvantage of not being able to attack AND then additionally you free up 6TN worth of other immuto modifiers. Removing the inability to attack because you had a ranged attack is a benefit, not a drawback. 

You're glossing over the bit where magic users typically don't want to be in close combat. The people that like to be in close combat tend to have better damage spreads, higher accuracy, and no reliance on suits. Sure, they go from not being able to attack (provided they have the immuto) to having an attack option, but they're still not exactly in a happy place. Getting up to 6 knocked off of of the TN doesn't solve the suit problem, and if they're using up all of that discount to bump up their spell effects they're still not in their happy place. It becomes even nastier if the Fatemaster uses the tools available to them and puts the spellcaster on a negative.

2 hours ago, DarkSpade said:

There are two reasons I like that the Fatemaster doesn't flip.

1) It speeds things up.  Not a lot, but enough.

2) It really emphasizes that that fated are the ones in control of their destinies.  The fated didn't hit because the enemy got a low number, the fated hit because they flipped high.  If a fated gets his/her butt kicked, it's no one's fault but their own.

This is a nice way to look at it.

More constructively, @spect_spidey, here is an Episodic campaign adjustment idea:

• Early campaign, Fated are relatively unknown. Maybe they were at the Crossroads, maybe they just escorted some people from the Guild Train Depot to Malifaux City. Whatever the case, they've been paid and there's a handful of people who at least recognize them. They end up in a Contract Town, and stuff hits the fan. The primary antagonist are Neverborn. On a good run through, the town survives and recovers. On a bad run through, the town is dying and eventually becomes a ghost town. On a critical failure, the town is destroyed. Any of these cases creates a legacy or reputation for the Fated. News and rumors about the whole thing end up making it back to Malifaux City.
• Next session after that, the Fated are approached to link up with a mercenary outfit that's investigating some ruins. Now they're building up more reputation. With only 1-2 previous sessions under their belt, the Fated have a few more Pursuit-related tricks, but their stats aren't putting them out of the league that the episode is set for.
• Later on in the campaign there's an episode where they take on a Haunted House and come out alive, albeit a little shaken. I'm referencing a tougher Penny Dreadful here, and if the Fated get through it they're definitely ready to handle tougher opponents; they're a lot harder to threaten with the basic Minion encounter now.
• The one shot you're planning for the next session is going to involve the Guild attempting to arrest the Fated in order to blackmail them into doing something specific. At this point, the crew has a bit of a reputation, and one or more of the Fated has become strong enough where Peons of any Rank present zero threat and even Minion (5) Fatemaster characters aren't really threatening. So it won't really work to send some lowly Guild Guards to do the arrest. Game mechanics-wise they're not enough of a threat to actually arrest the Fated without railroading your players.

With the Fated having a reputation from their previous episodes, the Guild will have some idea that the group is better equipped, trained, and skilled than the usual people they try to arrest and conscript into doing their dirty work. This provides your story justification for the Guild sending a group of Sergeants with a specialist Officer to arrest them, instead of a single Sergeant with a group of Guardsman. This change is both a Rank and Station change over what the one shot might call for in the first place, but it's necessary to keep the threat level up high enough to challenge your players.

One way you can help underscore the power level is by calling for a resisting challenge (such as Centering versus Intimidation). Since all TNs are transparent, when the TN of 12/13 is announced on the challenge, it should help drive home that the Guild representatives arresting them are not raw recruits, but someone higher up the food chain.
The Guild's representatives don't know anything specific about the group, they've never seen them in action. They only know what they've heard through rumors, rumors based off of at least three episodes, and that they're expected to bring the Fated to a secure location alive.
So, between those two bits of information, if the Fated resist arrest and fight back, you've shown them that the encounter is higher powered than the previous and you've got a hook to not kill them outright (first encounter is gauging where they are at). Some outcomes to plan for to advance the story of the episode (if they're not already listed in the one shot):

• The Fated comply and go along peacefully. Proceed to the Act that involves blackmailing the Fated into conducting a mission for the Guild. They come in under their own power and are greeted in a cordial and respectful manner. Advance pay and additional help might be volunteered.
• The Fated resist arrest and lose.  Proceed to the Act that involves blackmailing the Fated into conduction a mission for the Guild. They are dragged in and are greeted as a necessary nuisance. Incentives for being better behaved are offered on conclusion of the mission, but various social challenges may be required to get enough information to not be going in blind.
• The Fated resist arrest and win without killing the Guild reps. This one requires more prep work, as you'll end up needing an additional scene in the current act where less hostile measures are used in approaching the Fated, only now when you get to the Act that involves the blackmailing, there's an actual crime in there as well. Incentives as above, but informational help might be volunteered due to the party's obvious restraint in resisting arrest.
• The Fated resist arrest and win, killing the Guild reps. This one requires the most prep work as it can potentially derail the entire one shot. Similar to the previous scenario, you'll need an additional scene to try and steer the Fated back onto the storyline. Expect the Guild to treat them as hostiles unless they agree to conduct the mission in exchange for amnesty. No incentives, bonuses, advance pay would be offered, and any additional help will likely involve the same kind of social challenges that resisting and losing would require.

None of this involves trying to make a freshly recruited Guild Guard squad a threat to a veteran Fated crew who has several clandestine operations under their belt. Instead it tips the hat to the players, acknowledging that the Fated crew is tougher and more respected than the usual riffraff that the Guild might press into deniable operations. It also helps you as the Fatemaster drive the story onward. If the goal is to complete a one shot within a session or two and you're following pre-built one shots like the Penny Dreadfuls, you need to be able to at least keep the group moving through the planned Episode. In other systems that might involve forced/fudged die rolls (such as GM fiat to ignore a critical failure on something that needed to happen to advance the story), in a system where nothing Fatemaster does is randomized advancement of the episode's story only relies on the characters agreeing to bite one of the many hooks the Fatemaster dangles (which is one of the ways in which it speeds things up).

Which is where Fated players can adopt @DarkSpade's approach with #2 (quoted at beginning, twisted a bit here): the Fated are the ones who influence their own Fate through the story. Their antagonists are consistent, neither lucky in defeating the Fated or unlucky in being defeated. It was the Fated character's preparation, luck, and skill that determined the outcome.

58 minutes ago, spect_spidey said:

This statement proves what I am trying to say about the game design and using a standard AV. If a Fated focuses on Defense, Wisdom, or both you get to a point in which adventures have to go right into Enforcers or Henchman. You can no longer run adventures that build up to the big villain because the minions, etc. no longer offer any challenge.

Generally, no characters start with maxed stats or skills.

To increase a stat in the course of normal play (barring magic) requires completing Fate Steps. If you start with a stat of 3 (best you can start with) that means completing two Fate Steps and focusing on that stat.

This, by design, requires build up. If you're running a crew of 3-5 Fated, that's 4-6 sessions before they've completed that second Fate Step (if you're spreading out the Fate Step completion hooks). That's 4-6 Pursuit ranks gained by each Fated character. Congratulations, you're running a medium-long campaign before you reach a point where high level Enforcers are the thing you're pitting against your Fated.

58 minutes ago, spect_spidey said:

Look at it from a point of a campaign that doesn't contain one overall villain behind the whole campaign. Think of it more like an episodic TV series. Your players run through several one shots and get some advances which they focus on one area say Defense. Now you really can't continue with one shots that build up to a climax with the villain because the villain's minions now pose no threat to the Fated. If you adjust their AV to make their TN higher, all you are really doing is promoting that group of 5 minions to Enforcers.

How you design your campaign is up to you as Fatemaster.

• Some Fatemasters will have their campaign focused on a single overall antagonist. They do this because it allows for a single, contiguous plotline and consistent look and feel. It also allows for natural, organic progression of difficulty to go with character development. This is what is commonly seen as a campaign because it has the singular focus and linked events that are defining characteristics of a campaign.
• Some Fatemasters will take an episodic approach. If you're running one shots, then there is no room for build up. That is a flaw in the type of campaign that you're running. To work around this, each episode will have to be designed and/or adjusted for how the Fated characters have progressed since their last one shot. As Fatemaster you determine what is available for them to advance (their active Pursuit also plays a role in this), and if your players are continuously bumping one specific skill, maybe the next session should be set up to be less reliant on that one skill.
  If you're trying to run a series of one shots as a campaign without making adjustments to the adversaries in the one shots, that's not a flaw in the system.

Adjusting their Rank is not necessarily adjusting their Station. A Minion (station) with a Rank of 7 and an Enforcer (station) with a Rank of 7 will both have similar TNs for your Fated players to work against, but the Enforcer has a few more tricks up its sleeve. I suggest reviewing the Fatemaster portion of the rulebook and looking for the part that talks about how Fatemaster characters can affect Fated characters flips.

58 minutes ago, spect_spidey said:

The point I am trying to make is that static AVs result in minions becoming obsolete and IMHO destroys the build up to a climax that can result from progressing through an adventure. The one shots I have read always start with a little investigation, a minion battle, an ongoing challenge, a slightly tougher battle, some more ongoing challenges, and then a battle with the main villain to resolve the adventure. Static AVs result in losing some of this build up to an adventure conclusion as the Fated get stronger. For example, a group who has dealings with the Guild I could see starting to send more than regular Guild troops to deal with them. But in the next adventure if they are dealing with an Arcanist or a Neverborn who has no previous dealings with the Group wouldn't have any reason to through Enforcer level enemies at them at the beginning of their conflict.

See above bullet on the flaws of running a series of one shots like TV Episodes for a lede into the following:

Now, ignore the TTB mechanics for the time being. Think about another RPG system you've run games in (for example: D&D). If you ran a series of one shot adventures that are all aimed at the same level of difficulty in that system with the same group of players, those players will become effectively untouchable by even the main bad guys in those one shots. In a system like D&D your PCs get better at hitting, harder to hit, and have more hitpoints to churn through. The NPCs in those one shots are static. You have exactly the same problem in that other system that you are harping on here.

Now let's bring TTB mechanics back in. In that other system, to increase the difficulty and still use the same race/class of NPCs, I'd have to go through and make a number of changes throughout the character records of the NPCs to account for new feats/talents, more hitpoints, different acting values and different equipment, as well as different saving throws, etc. I'm not a video game engine, so it's not something I can do in less time than it takes my players to refresh their drinks; in fact, it ends up being something that I would have to devote considerable time to adjust, so much so that I might as well just use different bad guys. With TTB's mechanics I adjust one value: their Rank. With that one adjustment I make them more accurate and harder to hit. I make them better at their job and harder to mislead.

This allows me to adjust on the fly how things will go with minimal delay to the game. Those one shots are structured in a way where the first battle lets the FM gauge the combat readiness of the Fated. If it's an engaging and interesting fight, then the other encounters are where they need to be at. If the Fated are getting stomped, then the later encounters need to have their Ranks reduced slightly. If the Fated won easily, then the later encounters need to have their Ranks increased slightly.

If you're dead set on running episodic adventures, one of the things I would suggest to you is that you consider that as your Fated group does things they become more famous (or infamous). This means that other factions will have heard of them. This gives you a reason to bump the difficulty and allow for a new antagonist to have some preparation for the current party. This creates a reason to have the Fated run into an Enforcer or two earlier on.

Otherwise, I would strongly recommend that you look at how you're running your campaign. Many one shots are meant to be run purely as one shots, and not as episodes in a campaign. Others are all oriented at roughly the same level of challenge in order to offer different flavors of adventures for groups of similar power levels.  These offer hooks for developing your own campaigns, or simply an interesting and engaging way to spend a weekend with gaming buddies. That's why they're one shots. They're not designed to grow with Fated characters (unlike a campaign). So the recommendation is that instead of running the one shot straight out of the book, you account for the power level of your crew and adjust what they run into within the adventure to match where they are at now.

Use something to link things together (other than the fact it's the same group of Fated), otherwise it's not really a campaign so much as a collection of random adventures.

After all, you don't send the party of four level 10 characters down into the basement to clear out a rat nest to prove their mettle, then send them to clear a goblin camp. That's boring for the players and well beneath their characters' level. Those rats and goblins are effectively obsolete. If I don't want to spend my Thursday and Friday evening adjusting the rat stats and advancing the goblin levels and giving them class feats to make them pose a real threat to the group, then I need to replace them with bad guys of more appropriate difficulty. That is the reality of a game in which player characters gain power.

Also of note: Vogel may not have a model yet, but his rules are finalized and official. If he tears apart something that has armor with his trigger, he drops extra scrap. This means that he could potentially get you three scrap out of a sacrificial construct (like an Ice Gamin). Per GGxx, if you want to use him in organized event play, talk to the TO in advance and have your proxies on hand for review.

1 hour ago, spect_spidey said:

This can be applied to any situation in the game. Max out charm and no one could ever resist you. I use Defense & Willpower as my main example due to combat and death being the most prevalent ways a Fated could be removed from the game.

Also of note:

Charm maxes at 5. Any skill you'd pair it with for an effect also maxes at 5. If you have Fated that are at maxed trait(s) and maxed skill(s), they're high level Enforcer to low level Henchman in power. That is who you should be comparing them against as peers. These are Rank 9-11 NPCs who often have Trait/Skill combinations of 6-7, making the TN to avoid their attacks (or succeed in your own actions against them) somewhere between 15 and 18.

Fated will never auto-succeed against them. Even with maxed stat&skill, they need to flip or cheat in a minimum of 5-8 to deal with something that's around their power level.

To affect a high powered Master or Tyrant, you need a Red Joker, even with maxed stat + skill.

If your Fated crew are at Henchmen levels of power, only the most cartoonish of dumb villains* will send out peons and minions to deal with them. Serious threats to them, NPCs worth the Fated characters' time and attention, should be sending out teams of Enforcers led by a Henchman.

* Google search for "things I'd do if I became an evil overlord" -- mistakes made by villains are humorously skewered in that list, but it also serves as a nice list of things that can be used or avoided to adjust the relative intelligence of your primary villain (and thus the level of threat/challenge that they are). Cartoonishly dumb villains do the things that that list says to avoid.

2 hours ago, spect_spidey said:

Your post is looking at it from attacking. I am looking at it from Fated defending. A starting character can have a Defense and Willpower of 5. This means for a typical minion they need to flip a 5 or better to avoid an attack. That is not hard to do.

With card probability it becomes progressively harder to do. The more often a 5+ is flipped, the more likely a 0-4 will be flipped.
As I've said (and Mason has said in Q&A regarding the TTB system), if you (as Fatemaster) are finding that combat is too easy for your Fated crew, you bump the Rank of the NPCs. A typical Minion (5) becoming a Minion (6) means that the player who needed to flip a 5 to defend now needs to flip a 6 or better to avoid the attack. This is harder to do than flipping the 5 or better, and it means that the likelihood of continuing to avoid attacks is significantly reduced. As an exercise (base assumption is no cheating fate involved):

• Fated needs a 5+ to defend against effect from single opponent, assuming full deck at start and that the player succeeds every flip:
  • First time defending, the deck has 17 cards that will fail and 37 that will succeed. Probability of succeeding: 68.5%
  • Second time defending, the deck still has 17 cards that will fail and 36 that will succeed. Probability of succeeding this defense alone: 67.9%. Probability of succeeding on both defense flips is 46.5%
• Fated needs a 5+ to defend against effect from second opponent, assuming successfully avoiding all from previous opponent, succeeding every flip here, and no other cards flipped between first and second opponent:
  • Third time defending, the deck has 17 cards that will fail and 35 cards that will succeed. Probability of succeeding this defense alone: 67.3%. Probability of succeeding on this defense as well as all previous defense flips: 31.3%
  • Fourth time defending, the deck has 17 failure cards and 34 success cards. Probability of succeeding this defense alone: 66.7%. Probability of succeeding on all four of these defense flips is 20.9%.

It gets progressively harder to defend. Now if I bump the Minion (5) to Minion (6) and operate on the same assumptions, starting with a fresh shuffle and a full deck:

• First defense flip, the deck has 21 failure cards and 33 success cards. Probability of successful defense: 61.1%.
• Second defense flip, 21 fail cards and 32 success cards. Probability of defense here alone: 60.4%. Probability of defending all: 36.9%.
• Third defense flip, 21 fail cards and 31 success cards. Probability of defense here alone: 59.6%. Probability of defending all: 22.0%.
• Fourth defense flip, 21 fail cards and 30 success cards. Probability of defense here alone: 58.8%. Probability of defending all: 12.9%.

2 hours ago, spect_spidey said:

As a player focuses on increasing Defense & Willpower their dependency on the flip lessens. This makes the threat lessened. So if the player has no fear of that enemy, they won't care if the combat takes forever to defeat the enemy since there is no probability of damage. As a Fatemaster I shouldn't have to change enemy stats to make the opponent a challenge. IMHO that is a flaw in game design. If the intention is for me to do that why even have NPC stats?

Fated character players can do things to improve their odds, including cheating fate so that if a defensive flip fails they can still pass it anyway, but at a resource cost (their Twist hand). Eventually those resources run out, and even being on positives due to taking defensive actions won't always help. Eventually the Fated will have to do something to end that conflict. Note: bumping the rank of an opponent is changing one thing about it to increase the challenge. That's not "changing enemy stats" in the same way other game systems handle increasing the level of a hostile mobile, because the only thing that their rank does is apply a default flip value. You're using the same stat line and changing the value that determines what the Fated needs as a target number. That is deliberate in the game design.

NPC stats are there for you to use as you see fit when you're the Fatemaster. If you're looking to make combat challenging, you play to the strongest values on the NPCs stat line. That is, you put Guild Riflemen up on a rooftop or elevated ridgeline and have them shooting at the Fated from a long ways away. If you're using a shooter that happens to have decent Stealth, you make your Fated take Notice challenges to try and figure out where the shots are coming from, burning their AP trying to find the sniper while the sniper continues shooting at them.

2 hours ago, spect_spidey said:

An enemy of any kind should pose a threat no matter how experienced the Fated is. Having their AV constant causes enemies to become less threatening and obsolete as characters advance. Any enemy shouldn't become obsolete simply because the character now automatically beats their AV. That is what will happen in TTB.  How would Malifaux play if no minion could ever hurt a master?

I think @solkan provided a perfect response to this. While TTB is not setting the players up as godlike in comparison to other humans (unlike D&D), the Fated characters are characters that are marked by Fate and the Fated have caught glimpses of the fact that they're something special.

Something to note: Malifaux the miniatures game is a direct competition game between two players with hired crews that are led by a Henchman or Master (depending on level of match). In order to support direct competition, the system has to make it possible (even if terribly unlikely) for the lowliest of the low to affect the highest of the mighty.
Through the Breach is a roleplaying system, not a competition game. The Fatemaster puts together a story that the Fated will experience and shape through a number of sessions. What that story looks like is determined by communication between Fated players and Fatemaster, as well as cooperation (or lack thereof) between Fated character players. If an enemy is in danger of becoming obsolete (such as Mindless Zombies), you move on to the next tier of enemies. Mindless Zombie Hordes (separate entry in the rulebook) are significantly greater threats than individual Mindless Zombies. If your Fated crew is hunting a suspected Resser, they're getting more powerful as they get closer to the Resser Boss, but they should also be expecting to run into greater threats.

A mission that starts out because a Zombie Swordsman and a handful of Mindless Zombies overran a Guild Observation Post organically progresses towards running into Mindless Zombie Hordes instead of Mindless Zombies, more Zombie Swordsmen, and eventually, undead of greater power, until the Fated eventually confront the Resser foe in their lair. This is a natural progression in many RPGs.

2 hours ago, spect_spidey said:

This can be applied to any situation in the game. Max out charm and no one could ever resist you. I use Defense & Willpower as my main example due to combat and death being the most prevalent ways a Fated could be removed from the game.

IMHO, the more you remove the ability for random results the less exciting, dangerous, and fun interacting with the world is. My players always remember the times there were critical hits and fumbles whether PC or NPC. I couldn't see them talking about the time they auto-evaded all those attacks because their Defense was higher than the enemy AV.

As Fatemaster, design your sessions so that they don't always play to the Fated characters' strengths. No amount of Charm, Defense, or Willpower will protect a Fated character from drowning or getting frostbite. Guns eventually run out of bullets, and if they take 3AP to reload and freezing/drowning conditions are making your Fated gunslinger Slow (1AP per activation round), they need 3 rounds to reload before they're shooting again. If said gunslinger focuses on reloading for 3 rounds against an enemy that they can avoid being hit by on a 5+, they still have to avoid 6 attacks (avoiding 5 sequential attacks successfully using assumptions above: 13.8%, 6: 9.0%) before they get to start shooting again.

This can actively increase tension. Every attack that fails means there's a higher chance of the next attack succeeding. If your Fated reach a point where they automatically succeed, then you as Fatemaster are responsible for adjusting the Rank, number, and/or type of what you throw at them to create a challenge, as well as battlefield conditions that they find themselves in.

If you're looking for ways to remove Fated from the game, environmental factors and their Fate steps can service this quite neatly. In one of the Penny Dreadfuls, the Fated are involved with a battle over a town. At some point during the battle there is a barreling train racing down a track to slam into a barricade. If the Fated character is in the way, it's like a rocks fall scenario by design. They die. Unlike the stereotypical rocks fall scenario, it is avoidable (don't be on the barricade or train track when it happens). If you're Fatemastering and are looking for environmental factors beyond that, the story Penny Dreadfuls like Nythera involve many natural hazards (supernatural cold, cliffsides with playful Wind Gamin trying to knock the Fated off).
Death and fulfillment of all Fate Steps aren't the only way to retire a Fated. Another Penny Dreadful features a massive Neverborn threat to a town, and the bitterness of failure there isn't players seeing their Fated die (though it could happen), it's the Fated living with the fact that they could not protect everyone, and depending on what they failed to do all the townspeople could be dead. The Fated characters' play don't die, but they now have reason to retire. Being able to win combat does not guarantee mission success, and you can shape your adventures so that the mission could fail if there's sustained combat.
Risk of failing the mission should be a bigger motivator than fear of dying. After all, it's possible to bring Fated back as Invested or Stitched, it's not possible to stop Nytemare's train from killing everyone on board after it's already happened. Sure, a Fated crew can set themselves up to simply outlast any peon or low minion sent after them, but if they're on a time limit, they can't afford to just withstand the assault. They have to end it or get out of it yesterday, because they have more important things to do.

These things make for stories that can be just as (if not more) memorable as that one critical success or failure.

As a counter to your opinion, I offer the opinion that the freezing cold, slowed gunslinger Fated player is not going to care so much about his or her shooting record (crit successes or failures) when it comes to memorable moments. They're going to remember when they gave up on trying to reload and started trying to beat that Zombie Swordsman down with their empty Collier Navy pistol's butt because they realized that as graceful and evasive as they were, eventually they would get hit and they had far more important things to be doing. That's a much more exciting story to me than the time they put a bullet through the eye of an Adult Nephilim, if for no other reason than because of course they did, they're a gunslinger.

On 9/20/2017 at 9:28 AM, spect_spidey said:

Looking at character creation, a player can create a Fated that only needs a 4 or 5 on a flip to evade most minions. I figure with a few advancements, those AV 9 or 10 minions no longer become a threat since the card needed to beat them becomes so low. I may be wrong, but it seems like eventually the only worry is flipping the black joker.

At character creation, someone who min-maxes a character this way has other glaring weaknesses that the Fatemaster can use to make interesting stories. Outside of that, it makes sense for someone who is a notch above a minion to be able to relatively easily best them when they're playing to their strengths. A Might 3, Pugilism 3 Fated character is a nasty brawler--but they have to get in close to do stuff, and their other stats aren't going to be quite as good for that. A Grace 3, Pistols 3 Fated can be a horrifically good mid-ranged gunfighter, but they have to deal with opponents in cover, reloading, and dealing with opponents that get into melee range--where their stats aren't as helpful at keeping them in fighting shape without help.

However, fighting minions isn't the only thing to do in Malifaux.

When combat does break out, the rank system is a tool that Fatemasters can use to adjust the difficulty level on the fly. A Minion (5) that sets TNs to resist to a 9 can be promoted to a Minion (6), which sets the TNs to a 10. This increase in difficulty may seem trivial, but it reduces the probability of success. A swarm of Zombies, Rats, or Gremlins can still threaten higher ranked characters if the Fatemaster wants them to.

As @Mason already pointed out, there is still random number generation being used--it's just entirely in the Fated player's hands. You flip for your defense against the acting value of the opposing character. Having played other systems where the *M has to generate their own random numbers, I definitely can appreciate the streamlining effect of it. Sure, it means I can never fudge the random number result to prevent a rocks fall scenario befalling the Fated, but if I'm in a position where I'm having to do that I didn't prepare a session for the Fated crew in front of me. The other side of the coin, not being able to fudge things for the NPCs to hit also doesn't come up. If I want the NPCs to hit, more Gremlins attacking means more cards flipped. More cards flipped means I will eventually land hits (card probability at work). The way the triggers and critical work, it doesn't take more than a few hits to make most Fated start trying to figure out ways to avoid getting hit or hurt altogether. Increasing the rank of the attacking models (or even the station characteristic, which has tools that make things harder on the Fated as well) increases number of cards that those attackers will hit on.

One of the key differences between card probability and dice probability is that dice probability is memoryless. It's entirely possible to roll 15+ 30 times in a row on a d20. It's also entirely possible to roll a 1 five times in a row on that same die. Whatever you have rolled before does not affect what you will roll next. Card probability is not memoryless. The random ordering is set during the shuffle (and the order, type, and count of the shuffle affects it), and as people flips cards off of the deck it increases the probability of the opposing effect to happen. The more often the Fated flip successes, the more likely they are to flip failures in the future, and vice versa. This doesn't get reset until the Fatemaster reshuffles the deck (either because it ran out, or the FM decides to do it due to a scene or timing change).

If the encounter isn't scaled for the Fated crew, even a Black Joker is still a success for the Fated. A single Mindless Zombie being shot by the Fated character with Grace 3/Pistols 3 is effectively automatically hit. How clean a hit is determined by the differential. So don't throw MZ at your Fated gunslinger unless your intent is to run them out of bullets just in time for the Zombie Swordsmen to ambush them. A flurrying Zombie Swordsman with a defensive TN of 12+ is a terrible threat to that gunslinger, especially if you as the Fatemaster bumped its rank because combat has generally been easy for your Fated crew (normally its TN is 11, but by increasing its rank I can get the 12+).

3 minutes ago, Jordon said:

Good point. I've never really had that come up as most models simply kick his teeth in as soon as he drags them in. He honestly feels like a broken model with all his anti synergy. The Ice Golem at least works, just not well.

Ice Golem is a definitely #2 worst in my mind though

I've had him draw stuff into and chain activate a beater like Johan. That's not exactly useless. He has some oddball stuff about him at a glance, but he provides another control vector that can be used on friendlies to pull them up (after he's been pulled up 6" by Ironsides) and potentially put them into HPM state (min damage 1 won't beat the Arcane Shielding of the Oxfordians), or to pull something that's already activated out of position.

If he spends his 2 AP pulling an enemy 8" into him and pulling Johan 8" into him (damaging Johan to give the Relic Hammer wielding beater HPM as well as his own built in working with friends benefit for being near a friendly M&SU model), in order to chain activate Johan (who then flurries), I think that's AP well spent.

With the Ice Golem being summonable, it's liability is lessened. Rasputina could potentially put one of these (for a stone and a card) somewhere distracting. Sure, it's going to die and die horribly, but if you hire/summon with that in mind it won't be a surprise. It might even help you get some VP or an activation edge if the circumstances are good for it--but that's the advantage of having the choice to summon it. If the scenario calls for it, you bring it in. Otherwise, you don't. It's not unlike the University Transmortis Students under a master like Molly: she summons in the one(s) that will work for the situation, instead of hiring and hoping.

@Aaron, it might be helpful to have a "report user" feature available when viewing the user profile for someone who is spamming, for instance, user celinaramone had posted spam posts in the European Events. This could help your administration team identify and lock down accounts that are abusing the community without users needing to visit the post to report it.

3 minutes ago, Jinn said:

Because they aren't December Acolytes.

That's what it ends up amounting to. Both are 7 stones, both have shooting roles. One does more control work early in the game (Acolyte) and can start the game close enough to focus and shoot, handing out Slow on a success on Turn 1 against something important. The other can cycle cards and get some interesting effects from their abilities, but require more set up and tend to kick in later in the game.
When you're playing a game where the first blood is drawn end of Turn 1 or beginning of Turn 2, anything that is counting on being around on Turn 3 is less reliable than things that start their work at the top of Turn 1. If you're playing against something less aggressive, then Gunsmiths bring a set of tools that can be very useful to hitting and erasing specific targets. The best work for value I've gotten out of them is master/henchman hunting off of the trigger that blocks soulstone prevention of damage (going for the master kill in Turn 3), but that's not as universally useful as handing out slow to a beater in Turn 1.

With Ironsides' bump, you might see Gunsmiths appearing in her crews more (HPM doesn't rely on your enemy being burning). The funny thing is is that they aren't bad; there are players from other factions that resent the fact that we have models like the Gunsmiths and they're considered "bad" in various competitive groups.

On 9/18/2017 at 10:32 AM, solkan said:

For the record, there did appear to be some differences between the rulebooks that they were using in the demos at GenCon and the public beta rules.

Which is why I'm sitting quietly and biding time until everything ships. Once I have the rulebook in hand to digest, other questions (and force composition) can be handled with knowledge instead of second-hand speculation and obsolete rulings. See also my question(s) regarding Abyssinian forces never ending the turn so long as they have units to activate.

On 9/18/2017 at 8:07 AM, Jordon said:

Her new (0) is just way to situational and is probably not worth the effort to what amounts to making a 4-5ss model "super slow".

I got to use this ability, and it helped tremendously with the scenario. It's an unopposed delayed obey effect. What you get out of it is very situational, yes, but it can help when you use it. What I got the least utility out of with her new upgrades was the saber trick as a (1), but I had not constructed her crew to support it. The focused condition was actually nice to have when I had line of site to things, allowing me to cycle cards and go for effects that I wanted. She still generates a ton of scheme markers and can still move things around the board, which are still good abilities in general. It falls on your scheme selection to determine how powerful they are.

One of the take aways from the Wave 5 stuff that I'm picking up on is that there's more reason to think about what you're going to take into a scenario than there was before (excepting Sandeep, because he's flexible enough to still run virtually any scenario). Combine that with the direction that GG2018 appears to be going with the testing, and we're looking at a less predictable scheme selection. This could help make games in general less predictable, and if we hit that state, then those generally good abilities can be used to adapt and overcome.

Now if you're looking for an optimized way to complete a specific and predictable scenario, you'll probably want to look at another option if it doesn't involve markers or interactions--but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

8 hours ago, solkan said:

Anyway, don't forget the downsides for magic use, such as weakness to Counter Spell and attracting Witch Hunters.  Every damned fool that picks up a spell book seems to think that the law and the Guild no longer matter.  

...and the ones who get away from Malifaux City don't understand that the people who control places like Ripley or Promise are quite ruthless in making sure that nothing and no one threatens their hold.

Also: if being at 1 yard seems to be of little consequence to the spellcaster, you might want to consider bumping the rank level of the things that get that close.

Then again, more gunfights will also make the consequence more noticeable-it doesn't take more than 2 min damage hits from stock firearms (pistol or rifle) to put a Fated character in danger of critical effects, if you have to break cover to get in close to a gunfighter or rifleman team, you might not make it.

At creation of a Fated Tinkerer, the limitation of 25 script means that the most number of Construction Points that can be used (no weapons) is 3. If you want to arm the puppet, you'll end up with less Construction Points. At Height 1, you'll max out construction with Artefacting 3. To start giving ranks in Skills, you'll want Engineering (2 at creation lets you grant skills with no loss).

Fated created constructs will essentially never be quite like Wicked Dolls or Marionettes, but Fated Tinkerers can get close enough with enough Artefacting, Engineering, and a Grimoire with suitable Enchanting spells and Magia to bump stats.

The puppets on 312 are Collodi (master puppet) and several Marionettes (stats for the Marionettes are on page 371), 313 is his Henchman Vasilia and several more Marionettes. Wicked Dolls have NPC stats on page 372, so you can see what their weapons are and how they work. What you'll end up needing to do as Fatemaster is determine the cost to the Fated to acquire similar weapons for the construct. As for all of their abilities--construct construction doesn't grant access to those abilities, but you as Fatemaster can use your discretion to reward the Tinkerer's Fate advancement(s) for completing Fate steps with manifested powers.

I'll get back to you with a detailed response once I get home and have my book in hand.

For a placeholder: Tinkerer in the new set of rules starts the game with a single construct that costs 25 script or less to build using the included construct creation rules.

13 minutes ago, Sernus said:

Mindless Zombies are good practice opponents for getting a new group used to successfully hitting an enemy: a character only has to come up with a 6 on the Attack flip to match their Defense.  The MZs get an auto  on damage flips, making them a little harder to take down, but they're Slow (only 1AP available), have bad Initiative and don't move quickly, so the players will mainly dictate the pace of engagement.  Characters also only need a 7 to avoid the MZs' attacks.  (They're much tougher in a Horde!)

Most of the other lower-level opponents (Minion (5) characters) will have Defense of from 8 to 10, and an Attack AV in a similar range, so they're the next step.  A player's Fated ought to find them more challenging, but not impossible, to hit and damage.  One Minion per Fated is a typical "starting-out" number, with some Minion (6) characters and/or an Enforcer (7) or two added as players get more used to the game's mechanics and their Fated get a bit of experience.

 

On the subject of Ghost House: that adventure can be a tough one for some parties!  Not only is the chief adversary a very strong opponent, the Fated can come out of that place being significantly Haunted...!

That's why I use Mindless Zombies as a bottom rung opponent for introducing the combat system. They'll be interesting enough where the non-combatants in the group will care what they flip, but weak enough where piling a few more of them in isn't going to be too much for them to handle. Mixing in something that actually gets to use some of the other rules while having better stats (Minion (6)) and/or more ways to respond (Enforcer (7)) also helps underscore that TtB isn't mob grinding--there are things out there that are a significant threat to even well-prepared parties.

31 minutes ago, gamefreak180 said:

Good to know so my fiance is looking through the book and I noticed she likes the wicked dolls is there a way to have one as a companion like a construct or thugs also a way to make them? Which book is the animal companion general talent (or from pursuit) in?

Who are the weird puppet/marionette dudes in the core book

To have a Wicked Doll as a Wicked Doll will take some work--but you can start a 2E Fated as a Tinkerer and have a single construct as a "companion" to start with. If you go down this rabbit hole with your fiance, it's possible to eventually have that construct be almost exactly like a Wicked Doll. Which puppet/marionettes are you referring to?

I think the guidance in the book is 1 opponent per Fated character that's on par with the Fated, plus a leader type. So if you're just starting out with a group of 4 Fated, 4 Peons and a high Minion (or low Enforcer) should present enough of a challenge where the Fated will want to work together to get through the fight. If your group has trouble with that ratio, you can provide an escape route or helping hand with a wandering good guy (location dependent; "good" is flexible).

Otherwise, if it looks like the encounter is going all too easily for the Fated, as @Le gob said: call in reinforcements for the bad guys. Another mindless zombie or two stumbling in from behind them will force them to split their attention, even if only briefly. A rogue soulstone driller erupting from the floor might be a decent miniboss in the encounter, especially since it's built to drill towards soul stones like the one or two that a spell caster may have purchased. What comes in depends on where you're at and how the scenes for that session are supposed to run (don't bring a zombie to a Neverborn fight, for example).

If I turn to my usual opponents and ask them which model they're more afraid of between the Johan and the Shastar Vidiya Guard (SVG), SVG is the one that brings actual shudders. Both present problems for my opponents, but the additional pushes from the SVG and the host of triggers on his attacks he answers more questions for me. Sure, he's not packing a Relic Hammer, but then he's also not counting on my opponent fielding Constructs or Tyrants to maximize his potential and can threat a lot further to go after things important to the scenario.

Direct comparisons between the two ignore the fact that they do different jobs into different scenarios. Similarly, direct comparisons between SVG and Oxfordian Mages overlooks that you're hiring them for different purposes into different scenarios (even if only because of the opponent's known preferences).

There are some times where the Oxfordian Mages will be hands-down better for scenario. For instance, with GG18 Ours scenario caring about the printed soulstone cost of the model, 15 stones' worth of hiring power gives 18 stones' worth of scoring potential. All they have to do is bunker down and stay alive. They can potentially do more by using their attacks to push things out of scoring position as well. But if you need something to reach your opponent's deployment zone with AP to spare or in good enough health to survive until their next activation by Turn 2/3 to tear down a Symbol of Authority, these guys aren't doing it. Sure, you won't be hiring them for that piece of the scenario, you're likely to hire someone like The Firestarter, give TFS Warding Runes and Imbued Energies, and go reckless, regen 1, pitch IE and fly 20" up the board knowing you can spend Soulstones to stay alive until TFS' next activation to tear it down--but what's your backup plan for those three VP if The Firestarter gets merced before activating in Turn 2 (over-extending can lead to that)?