Setoth

Arcanists use magic, which if I recall correctly isn't explicitly a Malifaux-only phenomenon. Malifaux has the most, but Earth had magic for a while before it was all depleted if I'm remembering the first book correctly. The fact that Malifaux has an abundance of soulstones means magic has tremendous effect here, and it's probably why Malifaux is the crossroads of a bunch of different dimensions/realms/what-have-you's. But I don't think using lots of magic alone is sufficient enough to qualify someone as Neverborn.

We also know humans can, to some degree, become Neverborn (See: Tuco and Zoraida). Though it's hard to say where the Governor General stands on this. Lucius is almost certainly not human. There's a theory running around that he's Coppelius, which would put him more in the Dreamer's camp. But I have yet to see any evidence suggesting he and the Dreamer are pals.

Based on the first print of the book they're the Insidious Madness is not HT 1, but I can't access the V2 stat cards so I dunno if that was changed or not.

Lynch, in my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience is actually pretty straight forward. If you can wrap your head around some of the movement shenanigans (Depleted's (0) 5' move, Graves' Bar Closed) the rest is basically moving your way towards objectives and tactically using Hi-Def. There's a few small tricks here and there like managing the Depleted's Insignificance but honestly I'd consider him to be one of the simplest to learn. Especially compared to other Neverborn.

I figured Pain Train would have been assigned to Thomas on account of him being an actual train? Topic: There was talk not too long ago of Zoraida, Wicked Dolls, and Collidi being used as a magickal teleporting robot. So that's one option for improving his speed in a Neverborn crew to break-neck rates. I don't have the books in front of me so I'm not sure how that would work since a lot of those abilities have named models in them...anyone remember that, or tried some variation thereof?

Errrr good point. I meant running them with someone other than Misaki. I want to play with them some with a Lynch crew since he can take most of his models regardless of faction anyways, but I'm not all that interested in Misaki at all.

In the case of the Torakage, you aren't just buying Misaki and Shang. You're also buying Ototo. At which point half of your purchase is useless if you don't feel like playing Ten Thunders. And that's true of Mei Feng (Kang) as well. Plus we have yet to see what Yan Lo's box or Lucas McCabe's boxes look like. They might also use cheaper grunt models (Ashigaru, Wastrels?) so odds of a bigger, more expensive model filling in the blanks could be likely.

I feel like Illuminated might be worth it on their own, but Depleted usually need to run in multiples. From what I can see, Depleted are meant to take a beating for the rest of the crew doesn't want to take and then die for the cause. One can easily avoid/ignore a singular Depleted though. So far I've been unimpressed with the offensive output of the Illuminated, but they've been deceptively good at taking a beating. My opponent put out a lot of low damage blasts, but between the armor and the Regen they weren't really taking a lot of damage. Plus the Regen gives you early wounds to steal for Hi-Def's Feeding if you aren't in range of an enemy with Brilliance.

They could have chosen to serve him voluntarily without consideration to the Neverborn cause. Killjoy was a Neverborn (albeit now a dead one) so hypothetically speaking they could simply be supporting a Tyrant that goes against what other Neverborn typically stand for. I'm dreadfully curious as to why Graves and Tannen serve the Hungering Darkness. I feel it could shed a lot of light on many different issues. Seeing a former Tyrant listed as Neverborn in book 4 really threw me for a loop. I mean on the one hand the Neverborn acknowledge Tyrants work at cross-purposes, and the Hungering Darkness seems to be one of the smartest of the brood since it managed to not get trapped in the Red Cage. So joining with it for its potential as an anti-Tyrant weapon certainly seems like a possibility. But then again Tyrants have had ages to perfect their plans, and I can't help but feel after everything the Neverborn have witnessed (even one as "young" as Zoraida) I feel like trusting a Tyrant would be the last thing they'd want. Just look at the utter nonsense that December's gone through to escape, or the Gorgon. Hell even the Plague, by Zoraida's admittance one of the least cunning of the Tyrants, escaped a nearly inescapable prison and almost unlocked all of the powers of the Tyrants before the Gorgon put a stop to it at the Event.

I think a lot of Lynch's crew is deceptively tough. In my test game vs a Sonnia Criid list I think I lost all of one model, a Depleted that I voluntarily killed with another Depleted to get Hi-Def back on the table for another activation as all his models had already activated. Though all my models were battered and bloody, they were all still alive and kicking. The Illuminated's regeneration is actually pretty good combined with their Armor too. The only downside I've faced with the Depleted is that if they're too close to Hi-Def and he wants to pop Consume Brilliance you might do more harm to your own crew than good. I didn't take that into account the first two times (slow learner) and ended up dealing a lot of damage to myself.

That certainly puts the Hungering Darkness in the Neverborn camp since he is an original denizen of Malifaux, and while he is a Tyrant his scheming might not be antithetical to Neverborn rule of their "homeland" so to speak. Though not much is known about his goal beyond "regain lost power", it can at least be extrapolated that he isn't interested in changing Old Malifaux like the other Tyrants since he spent the zenith of his power hiding and feeding without being noticed. But where does that leave Nytmare? He doesn't seem to be a denizen of Old Malifaux insofar as his home appears to be the Dream Realm. He is functionally as much a Neverborn as Kirai's spirits, insofar as I can tell.

So here's a fun fluff discussion born from the "Who's the Neverborniest" thread. What defines a Master as a Neverborn, and do all the Neverborn Masters really qualify as "Neverborn?" This has been a bit of a mental itch of mine since I read all the fluff in book two. Neverborn are typically introduced/described as the original denizens of Malifaux long ago. The first book was pretty consistent on that. The three Masters from book 1 (who I now refer to as the Hex Girls, because lyrically and numerically it totally fits: ) qualify as Neverborn. Zoraida is human, but at the very least Lilith qualifies her as "Neverborn in spirit," which seems to be confirmed by the appearance of the Hooded Rider. She has also clearly been transformed by Malifaux as she's much older than she appears. The first book also seemed to imply that the Neverborn were allied to stop the Tyrant Entities, or at the very least the Hex Girls seemed to be working towards that goal. Book two introduced Nytmare/Lord Chompy Bits. The fluff suggests that he has little memory of his past, and all of the memories he does have come from the Dream Realm that he was locked in prior to meeting the Dreamer. But he does seem to have some information/intuition regarding Malifaux. That being said, most of his models also seem to be denizens of the Dream World (being Nightmares and all) though not much has been said about the multicharacteristic models like the Twins. Book two did not address the Dreamer, or LCB's role in the fight against/for the Tyrants. Book three didn't introduce any new Masters, but brought up a lot of fluff points. The Hooded Rider's appearance, as mentioned earlier, seems to put Zoraida firmly in the "Neverborn" camp. Lord Chompy Bits and Pandora have an interesting conversation in book 3 relating to Pandora's Box. Nytmare seems content with helping the Neverborn harness the powers of the Event to trap the Tyrants. He responds...oddly to being asked whether or not he is a Tyrant himself. Of course Tyrants are known to work at cross purposes all the time so his willingness to work against the others doesn't discount the possibility of him being a Tyrant at all. There is also the possibility of Pandora's Box being a Tyrant as well, or at least being the one calling the shots in their relationship. Book four introduces Jakob Lynch. His only connection to traditionally defined Neverborn are Graves and Tannen. Graves is a Nephilim and Tannen is a Woe. That being said, both serve the Hungering Darkness. Now, the language gets kind of screwy here. The Hungering Darkness is a contemporary of the Tyrants, that much is certain. It's power "rises" with theirs, but there isn't too much clarity as to whether or not the Hungering Darkness is *actually* a Tyrant or just an Old Malifaux entity that rose in power alongside them. My personal leaning is that it is a Tyrant as the book says its aversion to attention allowed the Hungering Darkness to avoid "being imprisoned along with the other Tyrants" (emphasis mine). So as far as I can tell, we have three Masters in the Hex Girls who are Neverborn in the truest sense and want to stop the Tyrants. We have Nytmare who may be a Tyrant, is not sure if it is a Tyrant, has knowledge of Malifaux and the Tyrants, and is willing to assist in the destruction of the known Tyrants (The Plague, the Grave Spirit, December, Cherufe?). We have the Hungering Darkness who seems to be a Tyrant but is entirely focused on regaining its old strength and is being served by a Nephilim and a Woe. What are your opinions on the subject? What defines a "Neverborn" and which of these Masters qualify? What fluff bits are relevant to the discussion, and what other theories add to this debate?

To me, Lynch and the Dreamer don't fit into the Neverborn mold at all. Lynch is a servant to a Tyrant, which it seems like the Neverborn are dead set on fighting to the bitter end. Nytmare comes from a completely different dimension, so he's not really a native of Malifaux as the Neverborn were initially characterized. Honestly I'd consider Ophelia or Somer closer to Neverborn than Lynch or Nytmare simply because Gremlins *are* denizens of Malifaux. Zoraida is a human, though she's been warped by Malifaux. But even she herself acknowledges the limitations of her being human to Lilith when the Hooded Rider is mentioned in Twisting Fates, noting that she is not Neverborn in blood. Though I suppose the argument could be made that if the Hooded Rider revealed itself to her then she could qualify. And Pandora struck me more of a "weapon" than a "person" really. So if I had to rank Lilith Zoraida Pandora Nytmare Lynch

I'd say your top priority is a Voodoo Doll. There is no way you'll want to go into a game without having one at the ready. It's free, it eliminates range and LOS requirements for Zoraida's spells, it gives a constant stream of poison 2, gives her bonus flips to spells, it can cast an additional Obey, you can summon a replacement...the list of perks go on. After that, Wicked Dolls are a good choice. Gives Zoraida more options during the game if you wanna hold onto or grab an extra objective somewhere or keep someone tied up. The Twins are good simply because they have so many characteristics and do so much that they can synergize with just about every Master. Insidious Madness are great objective grabbers. They float, they're spirits, they have a Wk of 8 inches, and they can do some fun Willpower shenanigans to boot.

Just remember guys, without Lynch's immunity Mr. Hippo would still be a puddle on the floor of the Honeypot (one of many I imagine, given it's reputation). Now if you'll excuse me, I believe Mr. Graves has a glass of rum waiting for me upstairs. And I must say he looks simply ravishing in the new tutu Lynch picked out for him. Love your little club though

Is it too late to declare my love for Team Lynch? Because I'm so on board with him. Team Lynch forevah!

This thread makes my soul smile.

What relics would you have taken to deal with a Collette crew?

I have a joke/theme list in my head of running 3 Lynch with 3 Depleted, Jack Daw and Killjoy to run a crew based off of Damnation Game ('Daw being the Tree in the novel, Killjoy being Greer, Depleted being other servents of Mamoulian and sacrifice fodder for Killjoy). I'm pretty sure it won't be competitive, even if the excess card draw helps both Killjoy and Jack Daw, and Jack Daw gives Arcane Reservoir, but I think with some fidgeting I can make it playable.

I can kinda help music-wise? Ghoultown's got a fun undead cowboy theme going that I imagine plays up to the more cartoony side of Malifaux. For something less cartoony but still mystery-meets-the-wild-west, you can't go wrong with old school Fields of the Nephilim. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJl8hAeKn8E In terms of books, while not steampunk per se Kim Newman's Anno Dracula series has that victorian horror vibe. It all takes place in an alternate ending to Dracula where the antagonist isn't stopped and he makes his way to England, where he seduces the Queen and brings vampires out into public knowledge to integrate them with society. Not a great book, but a good read with good atmosphere. http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/33535.Anno_Dracula ---------- Post added at 10:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 PM ---------- Oh, and if you like a more distinctly Asian folkloric type of horror I'd suggest Imprint by Takashi Miike. He's great at Japanese surrealism (Gozu comes to mind) and this flick reminds me a lot of the tone associated with Kirai.

Love it! Great work on the model. I've kind of considered someday picking up Simulacrum 29 just to paint. The paint scheme does him some great justice.

Working my way through Luther now. Really enjoying Alice's character a lot. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse with this, but I've always loved Mamoulian from Damnation Game as one of my favorite villains. Imagine someone consumed by nihilism, struggling to find a reason for existence by living through others indirectly. And at the end of the day when he's drained them all dry, he realizes there is no reason to keep living. The only thing he wants is to die, and kill everyone attached to him so he never has to feel again. And until he does, every day is exhaustion and agony. I also liked the Cenobites from Hellraiser because they exist in a moral vacuum, which is always my favorite kind of villainy. They operate in the extreme degree where pleasure and pain are two extremes of the same thing, and thus they cannot distinguish the difference between the two. So when they're ripping people apart with hooks and chains, they don't do it out of malice or contempt. They don't do it because they want to inflict unwanted things to other people. The concept of agony as a "bad" thing is utterly alien to them. Outside my Clive Barker fanboyism I've always been a fan of the Predators. They're certainly antagonists, though whether they're villains I guess is a different discussion all together. There are others, but I can't think of any right now. I'm sleepy...

I'd also recommend the Hellbound Heart, by Clive Barker. It's the book the first movie was based off. There are some differences (I don't recall the Engineer existing at all) but it's a short book and really good. Though I'm biased, as I'm a big Clive Barker fan. It's why I'm trying to figure out how to run a themed uncompetitive Jakob Lynch crew based on Damnation Game.

PandaDirector was circumventing political correctness debates before it was cool.

I thought the Seishin were produced as a result of the event, not from the corpse in question? It's the spirits being drawn to the site of the death rather than being made from the person? I could be completely delusional about that though, and I don't have the second book with me right now.