Myth

Keep in mind that he only gets to keep an Ace if it is flipped from the deck, not if he cheats it in, so you can't get infinite sprinting going on. Still, with his card advantage, Tots definitely can profit from the selection (and do pair well with Beckoners, given the Lure/Pounce combo). But yeah, I pretty much always run him as Neverborn.

Generally Hungry or Illuminated. (Or Lynch, if he is in a position where going earlier in the round is worth going without the bonus cards.) For me, the key is that I'm generally not trying to cover my opponent's entire crew in Brilliance. If I can land it on one key model a turn, and then rip that model to shreds with Illuminated, I'm pretty happy. I do want to like Beckoners. I always feel like I should try and make room for one in my Jacob lists. But I almost inevitably end up seeing something more valuable I can spend the points on (like a Doppelganger - who, as noted, works great with Hungry as a mimic-target!) I feel like there are lists and scenarios where they will be useful, but every time I've seen one in action, their lack of survivability and lack of versatility has ended up making them a liability for their player in the end.

I've found Illuminated to be a great buy in M2E - very durable for their cost, and with decent damage that cranks up to fantastic when Brilliance comes into play. On the other hand, Beckoner's have routinely disappointed. Lure and the ability to hand out Brilliance are both useful properties - but given how little else the model can do (including survive), their cost is just way too high. The success I've had with Lynch and crew has largely involved capitalizing on the fact that you are starting with two decently heavy hitters (Lynch and Hungry) and some pretty beefy minions (Illuminated). Rather than gear the entire crew for brilliance, I instead try and supplement it with other big dangerous threats (especially if I can add in some more Henchman to hang out near Hungry, with all of them enjoying Nexus of Power and refusing to go down.) I do tend to use Jacob in the same fashion as you mention - wait until the end of the round, and then use your superior card advantage (at that point) to do some serious damage.

So, I was trying to figure out how the Piglet Stampede trigger works when one is engaged with an enemy and also has other friendly models engaged in that combat as well. Here is an example of this scenario: 1) I have a Piglet and a Gremlin engaged with Enemy Model #1. 2) The Gremlin and Piglet are in base contact. 3) Enemy Model #2 is nearby but outside of the engagement - say, 4" away, in LoS of the Piglet. 4) The Piglet attacks Enemy Model #1, and gets the Stampede trigger. 5) At this point, "After damaging, this model suffers 1 damage and must Charge the closest legal target which it is not engaged with. This Charge may be made while engaged. This model may only declare this trigger once per activation." 6) Now, my original thought was that at this point the Piglet would charge out of the engagement and at Enemy Model #2, since that was the closest model not part of the engagement. 7) However, the rules say that you are never considered to be engaged with friendly models, and there is no requirement that Charging involves actual movement. Which meant that while the Piglet is not allowed to Stampede and Charge an enemy model that is right next to it, it does have to Stampede and Charge a friendly model that is right next to it. 8) So rather than charging out of the melee, it instead stays in place, and resolves a Charge against the adjacent Gremlin. Is this correct? I mean, I get that the Stampede is supposed to occasionally backfire and lead to your Piglets charging your own forces, but it did seem weird that Piglets engaged in a melee consider enemy models off-limits for charging, but are perfectly happy taking stationary charges against friendlies. Is there anything I'm missing about how this is supposed to work?

I found a fun trick in my last game with them. I set up Sword Vik for the usual turn 1 nova charge (via Student of Conflict, Oath Keeper, Scramble, etc). Before I launched her, however, I had a Void Wretch bury Master Vik. Then Sword Vik charged in, killed an enemy, which let Master Vik unbury right in the enemy ranks as well, and go ahead and take a full turn herself - and, notably, sets the two of them up for some solid use of their (2) AP Dragon manuevers. It was rather effective! Now, focusing them on moving and attacking means less time for buffing, but a few options exist to help with that. Hannah is a good example - if Sword Vik is carrying one of the buff spells, Hannah can copy it off of her - and even benefit from it without being a Sister!

I really wish that was worded to say "When this model would be killed". As it is, by a strict reading of the rules, it sounds like if another model's ability (which would also trigger on him being killed) has precedence in terms of timing, they could trigger stuff prior to him getting to trigger his effect that makes him not count as killed. Which I don't think is the intent, but might require a FAQ somewhere down the road...

I mean, I do think that having a smaller model selection is more of a hindrance now than it was before. But I think the reasons that have led to that are due to more strategic focus of the game, and that is a good thing. This isn't to say that there weren't crews before that didn't run into trouble in isolation - but I think that was typically due more to potential imbalance amongst the specific crews themselves. Yeah, I suspect running more of a killy Malifaux list was mainly due to starting with the Viks, and that being so clearly what they were built towards. The more objective driven system was definitely one of the elements that drew me to Malifaux in the first place - but when actually playing the game, I'd often just run into the situation where it didn't seem worth it to worry about the strategy when I could just slingshot the Viktorias into the enemy crew and wipe everything out. The greater focus on strategy and schemes in M2E makes it much harder to have that situation crop up - and means that if you find yourself in a scenario without the right tools for the job, it is a pretty steep uphill battle from there. Which I guess was my original point in the first place. No worries!

I played Viktorias primarily, and also played a few games with Von Schill and with Lilith. I never lost a game with the Viks - in part because, with the longer game length and ability to choose schemes, I could build a list focused simply on killing the opposing crew, and not really worry about the strategy until later. Again, I can only go on my own experience here, but that was how it went for me. And, again, I'm not saying that change - making it harder to simply ignore the strategy - is a bad thing. Just that it is a change that was made. Ok, I suppose at this point I'm not entirely clear on what you are saying. In my experience, in M1E, due to having greater control over schemes and more time to focus on simply killing the opponent, it was more viable to bring a crew without needing to customize it to the specific strategy. In M2E, I've found that focusing on the strategy and the scheme are much more important, and that bringing a pre-selected crew to a match is often more problematic if you get the wrong schemes. You seem to be saying the same thing - that it is more important to choose your list once you know what you are playing. So I'm not quite sure where we disagree? I've played... probably around 20-30 games of M2E, I think. At this point, more M2E than M1E, in fact.

Yeah, I'll readily admit that everyone's experiences can easily be different, and I'm not trying to say that this was any sort of universal situation! I was just recounting my own experiences - in M1E, I had one or two crews and I felt like I could bring them along to any given match and feel confident in how they would perform. In M2E, with less control over schemes and the shorter game length forcing you to focus on them more heavily, I've seen several games (at least during the playtest) where someone brought a crew to try out, and realized within a round that their list was so ill-suited to the scenario that victory was all but impossible. Again, I'm not saying this is a bad thing. I like that you can't just always pick the ideal two schemes for your list, and I definitely get the logic in having fewer game turns to force players to be really active in focusing on their goals (rather than just trying to kill the enemy and then sort things out later.) But I've found that those priorities have made it much harder to just take a list blindly without accounting for the schemes, strategy or opposing faction. If that hasn't been the case for others, fair enough. Agreed - while I certainly think that having strengths and weaknesses is valuable, and I like having abilities that might indirectly offer advantages vs opposing styles or tactics, I'm less a fan of having one model completely trump another one. Indeed, this is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about, in that M2E seems to have certain 'hard counters' that are more prevalent - or at least more accessible to many crews. If I know I am facing Rezzers, I can lay pretty good odds that they will have an anti-healing aura, and need to adjust my list accordingly. Again, I'm not saying it is a bad thing that M2E has a bit more of a metagame going on - just that (at least in my own experience) I've found that there is a lot more to take into account each match, and having a wider array of models available is more important than ever.

Oh, I think they've definitely put in a good deal of effort into making specific themed crews work together well. But that doesn't make each crew necessarily good at every strategy or scheme. Now, that wasn't the case in the past, either, but I think the impact is now more significant in such cases. In M1E, I generally felt like you could reliably have one crew, or a couple cool models you liked, and feel comfortable playing them in any given match. In M2E - I certainly don't think that is off the table as an option, but there are definitely some scenarios where the wrong crew is at a pretty steep disadvantage, and you need to be a bit more careful about model selection. Mind you, I'm not saying that is inherently a bad thing, either - just that it is a difference, and one well worth being aware of.

I kinda want to try Bishop in a Pandora crew, since he can target WP with all of his attacks, and that seems like it could be effective. It also gives another decent front-line figure to get in the way, and who can both help double down on AP control (via slow and paralyze) as well as handle some threats (armor) that Pandora's normal crew doesn't have as many answers to.

It is an interesting shorthand for Survival / Utility / Offense as the three primary roles that models can fill. I do agree that there might be a bit of confusion with Rock/Paper/Scissors normally being about how different models perform against each other - but that aside, the core idea is a good one, and does help one focus on what capabilities they need to be looking for in their models. Simply choosing a bunch of models with cool abilities was, I think, a lot more viable in M1E. In the new version, especially depending on schemes, strategy, and the opposing crew, I find myself needing to be much more concerned about what I am selecting and how it will be able to perform in different roles as needed.

You didn't pay SS to buy models in 1.5? While I do understand some complaints about upgrade-removal, this is the one that I really, really don't get. If Hans spends his turn removing a 2 SS upgrade, that somehow ruins the game. If Hans spends his turn killing a 10 SS model, however, that apparently isn't a problem. Now, I can see the complaint about it happening from across the board, and potentially with no recourse. The final implementation of the Focus/Sniper approach is something I'm not exactly a fan of myself. But the idea that losing upgrades is gamebreaking - but killing an upgraded model and removing it that way is not - just doesn't quite make sense to me. For myself, I used Hans (and saw him used) in a lot of games during the testing period, and I don't think even once was it worthwhile (or even an option) to have him take out an upgrade rather than just take down an enemy. (Or damage and slow them, or turn off their melee, or try to burn some enemy cards by targeting a Leader, etc.) I am sure there are situations where it is worthwhile and you have the cards to make it happen. I am sure there are even some situations where the loss of a specific upgrade will really, really suck. I don't like the idea of my Rapid Growth list losing an upgrade and suddenly not working. But the problem there isn't with Hans - it is with making Rapid Growth an upgrade, because even without Hans in the equation, I can just as easily lose the upgrade if the model carrying it is killed. As it is, given Han's limitations on targeting Masters, and given how little use I've seen from his upgrade-removal ability, I'm not too concerned about the effect it will have on gameplay. Now, the Tara copying idea is a neat trick, and does make Masters more vulnerable to having upgrades shot off. But it requires quite a bit of set up, and devoting that much effort from your crew (including most of your Masters turn) in order to try and remove one or maybe two upgrades.... well, doesn't seem all that efficient to me, when another crew might use that activity to simply kill some enemy models.

Yeah, that definitely is a bit surprising, given that the feedback from the playtest was that he was largely too cheap. I do get the concept that Lynch is supposed to be weaker than a normal master to make up for Huggy being strong for a totem. But Lynch really isn't that far behind the curve, Master-wise; certainly not on the same level as the Viktorias, for example, whose 7 wds are extremely fragile in the current paradigm. That said, keep in mind that it is effectively only a 1 SS reduction, since Lynch's Cache was also dropped by 2 SS. If there are other minor tweaks that haven't yet fully come to light, it may not be as unreasonable as it sounds.

Yeah, anything Nexus of Power related is going to be effective. But it also was possible before, it simply meant you needed to take Nexus of Power on another Henchman and have them stay need the Darkness. Candy actually pairs with him quite well. The problem isn't with the Hungering Darkness, it is with Nexus of Power. Throw Taelor into the mix for real fun. The three hang out together and shrug off most attacks for the first few turns. Eventually you run out of SS, but until then, they can do a lot of damage. (Assuming the enemy doesn't have some sort of anti-healing hard counter.) But Darkness being able to take the upgrade directly doesn't worry me any more than other Henchman doing so. Sure, he gets to pair it with being Incorporeal, but others get to pair it with regen or hard to wound or armor... etc. Now, one still might have reservations about his own cost and capabilities, and that's fair. If he really got dropped in cost to 0, that's kinda insane. But I don't think there is anything problematic about the combo itself - the individual pieces are where the problem might lie, and it just seems exaggerated when seeing them together in stark relief.

I guess I see what you are trying to say - that "reduce by half" has a different meaning, in this context, than "divide by half". But... I think most people will interpret those to have the same meaning, and that the proper way to reduce something by half is to divide it, which triggers the math side bar clause. Now, if it actually used the term 'subtract' instead of 'reduce', maybe there might be a bit more of an argument to be made, but as it is, I don't see any confusion there really in need of fixing.

What makes Bishop especially nice in combination with her is that he can target Wp with his attacks - and that Tara (and the Nightmare Beast) can inflict some serious penalties on the Wp of Fast enemies...

That is my assumption on how it is supposed to work. Unfortunately, the rules don't actually say that Pulses require LoS. Instead, they only state that "a model cannot be effected by an Aura or Pulse that emanates from a location out of LoS", which seems to allow a few odd corner-cases where LoS doesn't stop an Aura or Pulse from working in some fashion.

But the extent to which that is true definitely changes from one Master to the next. If you look at Zoraida, most of her core abilities (Obey, Voodoo Doll, Bewitch, Repulsive) are on her card. Sure, I will usually want one of her limited options, and Hex Bag gives a decent (0) action - but even without them, she has worthwhile (and iconic) actions to take. For Lilith, almost every action worth taking is going to be coming from an upgrade, with the only exception being Tangle Shadows (which will usually only be used when you have the right cards/soulstones to pull it off.) That's the real difference, and why I'm not as happy with Lilith's design compared to most other Masters. (At least, based on the final version of her in the playtest and my experiences with it.)

I'm actually pretty happy with most other Masters that I've tried out in M2E - and am a big fan of the upgrade system in general. I just don't think that upgrades should be an excuse for not giving a model worthwhile abilities in the first place, and that Lilith in particular suffers from having so much offloaded onto upgrades (both for herself and for the Nephilim as a whole) that it proves problematic. I'm not saying she's unplayable, by any means. But playing her in M2E has been pretty regularly disappointing, at least for me. It isn't even about specific abilities being absent, mind you - other Masters have had abilities vanish or change and are still quite exciting or effective in M2E. But she - and the Nephilim as a whole - have had many of their strengths diminished, especially compared to how most other models have changed, and for me that does seem unfortunate.

So, the rules state that a model cannot be affected by an Aura or Pulse that emanates from a location that is out of LoS. However, what about Auras that only affect the originator of the Aura itself, but are based on how many models are within the Aura? For example: The Hungering Darkness can Consume Brilliance to heal itself for every model with Briliance within a Pulse 6. Would it gain healing from models that are not in its LoS? It is clear that they would not be affected by the Horror Duel, but the rules don't seem to indicate that they wouldn't still count for the healing effect on the Darkness itself. Or Auras that affect things other than models? For example: The Freikorps Specialist. Can he Clear the Area to remove markers that are out of LoS? A couple of these questions have come up in recent games. My assumption has been that the goal is for Auras and Pulses to not work at all when LoS is blocked, but the way it is currently worded seems to allow a few corner-cases to bypass that, and I wasn't sure if that was working as intended or not.

Yeah, pretty much complete agreement with this - even with games where I've won with Lilith 2.0, she (and Nephilim as a whole) have not been especially fun to play. Previously, Lilith had several strengths - she was fast, she was tough, she was dangerous in melee and she had great synergy with other nephilim. She no longer feels fast compared to other masters, she feels very fragile if she ventures out of cover, and she needs to invest in an expensive upgrade to really feel like a melee master. She lost a lot of her support abilities (Earthquake, Alluring, Brood Mother, Blood from Stone), and all she received in return was a rather weak Root ability. She can regain some very strong support abilities - Transfixing Gaze, Illusionary Forest, Black Blood Pustule - but again, only via upgrades. I do get that we can't count on the M2E versions being exact copies of their previous versions. But it feels like a shame that the previous Lilith had a variety of styles of play, while the new version is so geared towards one approach (hiding in terrain), and so reliant on upgrades in order to have any worthwhile actions at all. Couple that with the Nephilim as a whole having a very difficult to use growth ability, while losing speed and range in an environment where most lists gained speed and range, and... well, I'm just hoping that the remaining Nephilim (Shaman, etc) will help make them more viable/enjoyable again. They have some good themes running through them, focused around hunting as a pack and pushing enemies around - I've just found it very difficult to actualy make those tricks work when it is so hard for them to actually get to the enemy alive, and frustrating that M2E, which I had hoped would be presenting more flexibility and options in list design, has left the Nephilim with so many limitations on their crew and their playstyle.

True, though I suspect that a fully buffed certainly is capable of taking him down even with those defenses (as each attack should still net ~3 or 4 damage on him after those effects.) But it is a close enough challenge that all it takes is a bit of luck in Juju's favor to survive one round of onslaught, and then he recovers quickly via regen and Nexus.