Dracomax

You say that, and yet the M2E book has been out for a year, and there is no indication of any willingness at all to sell it as a pdf. Wyrd, and book publishers in general have a record of (fairly justifiable) worry about piracy.

And yet, that is still a relatively small sampling of players at a single tournament. Add in that we are all "new" to M2E, and especially with wave 2 models, and yeah, there are going to be a few unexpected surprises. However, if the only model that really stuck in your craw was the effigy, then perhaps the Effigy is the issue. Just a second possibility. It indeed it is the issue, adding a line to the effigy along the lines of "this model may not be summoned" or something might work, as I can't think of anything else in arcanists that can summon one.

Part of that is the risk you take with a kickstarter. You are not an investor. You backed it with kickstarter. They are under obligation to give you what they promised you, and nothing more. You are not a money lender. you will not be getting any interest, regardless of what happened. If this state of affairs is not acceptable to you, then perhaps you should look into other options than kickstarter. You can say it was a poorly run kickstarter campaign, complain to kickstarter, and talk to the people running this campaign, but aside from that your rights and abilities really come down to not backing them in the future. I understand frustration. I do. I understand anger even. But it is not doing anyone any good. it won't change anything. Assuming for the Moment that the generally honest people at Wyrd are telling the truth, something went Kaka in shipping. Not much Wyrd can do, and I bet they are just as frustrated by it as you. Having the game take longer than expected probably should have been expected, because it is A) a kickstarter game, many of which take half again or twice as long as expected(republique just came out for Ipad, and is still not out for the other promised platforms) and it was being done to work with, by the same people, and at the same time as the Beta for Malifaux Second edition, which, being the primary fiduciary earner for Wyrd, Obviously got front seat in design time. You could complain that this was not in any way made clear at the time of the Kickstarter Campaign, but once it was known, You probably should have mentally added at least 6 months. Not to mention that this was the first time that this company has done an RPG, and so their estimates of when it would get done should have been looked at with skepticism anyway.

You ask as if we don't do this in the beta forums. the issue there is that the things that many people feel most strongly about are things that have been mentioned, argued about, and left unchanged. There's only so many times you can say the same thing without repeating yourself.

I think, at this point, you can complain about it and make everyone miserable, or you can let it go until we hear something new. It's not like complaining about it is going to make things happen any faster. In the meantime, if you are not satisfied with the kickstarter, you have a few options. First, you could contact the people involved directly, and ask for your money back. The people at wyrd are pretty cool. If they can, they would probably give it to you. Second, you could not put money in any kickstarters they do in the future, and chalk it up to lost money. Complaining about it here is probably the least useful or productive thing you could do. Personally, I'd like a bit of clarification on just what, exactly, I can do with the Pdfs. Can I print them? Can I post them to dropbox for use in Online tabletop/PPB games? I could be playing it, but I don't have a good handle on where Wyrd feels comfortable with it. And personally, the last thing I want to do is make them less comfortable with the concept of digital media, as I still very much would like them to produce a crewpicker/game manager app. I'd contribute to a kickstarter for that faster than a gremlin can steal your whiskey. But that's just me.

I can tell you from just reading it over, there are some things I like, some things I hate, and some things I am undecided on. If and when I have time, I might post a blog about it, but honestly, I'd almost rather wait until it is published before putting my thoughts out to the open world, so as not to unduly influence anyone for or against a game that is not even out yet.

I'm not sure that is a problem. A 12 SS model should be better than 3 4SS models. It has to compete for space, and is at a 3-4 AP per round disadvantage in a game where AP are one of your more valuable resources. It needs to be close, but enough better that you will take the loss of those AP for the gains you get. I'm not saying it definitely is not a problem, just that it is not necessarily one. It's a question of scale. Honestly, I disagree. Or at least, potentially disagree. It depends on what you mean by "flat footed." If what you are saying is, "From the first time you see it, it should never have any nasty moves that can seriously disrupt your plans if you aren't expecting them" I have to disagree entirely. That is not the way the game is designed, and I feel it would diminish the game to design that way. Not to mention it is really hard to control. Where do you stop? Lilith's no-LOS Tangle shadows? Ramos Spider creation? The Schill's ;blast and ;pulse resistance? All of them are nasty surprises that can make a game all but impossible if you aren't expecting them, and all of them can be mitigated if you know they exist—Even Sonnia Vs. the Schill can win and do lots of damage. However, if you are saying "the model has abilities that can not be compensated for, even if expected, and the lists must be built specifically to counter it, (i.e. the models that must be brought to counter it are not models which will help against the rest of the crew/faction" then I guess I can agree. You should not have to have an entirely different crew for the Mech rider than for all Arcanists. Luckily, the things that do best against the Mech rider also do so against most Arcanist models. In this respect, I'd say there is as much cause for concern as the Belle spam, the Rail Golem, or anything else; We should keep an eye on it over the course of several tournaments, and see how it performs in house games, and not jump to conclusions based on a relatively small sampling of games. In the mean time, if you feel it is so OP, play with/against it, develop strategies and crews for taking it down, and then try those crews against Arcanists who do not bring the rider. See if crews which do not go against the rider but are optimized for rider decimation are significantly worse than the crew you would otherwise have taken—and then post batreps. You might find some new strategies/tactics/crew combinations you hadn't thought of. You might become better at the game. If nothing else, you will have more evidence for your cause than "I don't like it because theoryfaux"

Part of the problem is that it is only pdfs. They are useful, but I can't run a game from them; it takes too long to get everyone on the same page, and I don't feel comfortable handing them out. Part of the problem is that the game is very much a first edition RPG. and a bit niche at that. And part of it is that it is only kickstarter people who have it.

Well, I don't know about Dreamer, but many of the Arcanists don't have a lot of healing, so they die fairly easily. Reckoning wise, it can actually help the opponent. I'm not saying it is bad, but you are comparing two entirely different mechanics, with one being an upgrade which costs a marker but gives a healthy model for 2 higher TN on a cheap upgrade, the other is a (0) on an expensive and fairly easily killed if you can target anything other than Df model which brings in nearly dead models of the same cost. Your argument feels like it is saying Ressers get an orangefor 4 guild scrip, but Arcanists get an apple for 3! Apple is OP! cuddle Arcanist fruit!

I like how you completely neglect the fact the mech rider brings them in mostly dead...

I'm fairly sure you can only discard one card fore each instance of entropic demise from unmade.

The only problem is I don't actually know what each undead I create is. Highest I've made so far is 512, with top score 4660.

Honestly, this sentiment has always struck me as kind of disrespectful and condescending to your significant other. it is saying "You aren't good enough to win on your own merit, so I'll give it to you."

Well, no. In reality, ubiquity in competitive events is generally representative of perceived power level. there is a small, but incredibly significant difference.

After a certain point, Adding more burning doesn't really matter. All you are doing is lightly toasting the corpse.

I'm not saying that if it can be dealt with, that means it isn't OP. For me, the key comes down to "Do I have to play an entirely different game if there is a chance of model X" and "Does model X consistently create a situation in which the opponent feels like they cannot win" Everybody using a model isn't necessarily a case of OP, so much as it is a case of comptetitive tourney inertia. Generally, based on what I've seen in tourney lists in the past, at high levels, people tend to play from a small subset of crews, and everyone Who plays crew X will bring model Y—Up until somebody comes up with a new, crazy, winning tactic with Model Z, and then everyone with Crew X will bring model Z, and Model Y will become a bit more rare. And the non-competitive players go on playing what they want.

I agree. I don't think anyone is saying it isn't good, or even an "always consider". Maybe even a hair too good for the cost. The argument is whether or not it needs a cuddle, and honestly, it is waaaaaay to early to call for that. There are a lot of models in the game, of which the Adepticon crews by necessity composed a relatively small part. In addition, the primary focus from which this is drawn was a certain Colette crew built around the rider, along with the feeling by many Arcanists at a single event that they should have taken it after the fact(the worst time to try and pick apart model choice—you know what the results were, so you extrapolate to what you should have taken, as opposed to what was smart to take with the information you had at the beginning). Keep in mind that the Colette player in question is a very good player, and worked very hard on building that list. He discovered some combos and tactics that are very strong together, and it came as a bit of a nasty surprise to others. This always leads to "this is OP and needs to be cuddled" feelings to some extent. The question is whether this particular set-up is as game-distorting as the M1E Filth list, or Dreamer slingshot, or if it is simply something that the game will compensate for with time by people developing effective tactics against it. And that will take time, a few tournaments where people go in prepared for it, and many, many games to determine. So, play, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow, the Mech rides. or something. anyway, go out and play with/against it for yourself. see if you need to bring otherwise useless models, or useless tactics to defeat it.

As a Sonnia player, I can tell you that hitting him early hurts, even with a lead lined coat, and that movement is his biggest weakness. If he can't get range or LOS on you, then he is going to spend half his activations trying to get into better position. Keep in mind that if He is taking Witch hunt, He is an 11SS model. Many people aren't willing to pay that for him, given how many other opportunities the crew has to put burning out. Even if they do, it precludes his using rapid fire to use it, which dramatically cuts down on his potential damage. a bad shot after Witch hunt can be very frustrating. Also, general anti-Sonnia Tip: You can take a (1) action to remove burning+1.

Also, Don't forget her Tangle Shadows move. If Lilith can get to about the center of the table, it is very hard to find a safe place from it. So one of Raspy's models gets put next to miss stabs-u-lots, and One of Lilith's models gets put in your backfield. Preferably Nekima or a Mature nephilim.... And Terrain makes no difference at all.

I would hate having them get peon for the rest of the game, solely from a book keeping standpoint. I wouldn't mind seeing the TN on the (0) go up, or seeing a second suit being added to the triggers either. They'd be small changes, but would tend to make them less "all the time" That being said, I think right now there is a bit of overreaction to a single tournament. It's powerful, but it's 12 SS. at nearly a quarter of your crew, it should be.

You must have better hands than me, then, because in general, I have 2-3 cards worth anything, and the rest are usually 5 or lower. I just can't afford to throw an 8 or 9 on the Mech rider's (0) most games.

I find that I rarely have a 6 or 7 in hand, and often get 1-5 on straight flips. but I suppose if you are devoting your hand to making constructs, you could do it. Personally, I'd rather bring in 2-3 a turn with Ramos for the high cards.

I've also had a tendency to not get the (0) more than 2/4 rounds I could possibly have it, So that part really kind of feels like hyperbole to me.

Honestly, I don't think most of the gremlins blow themselves up either. And fire/ice gamin are also arcanist. If I were to describe the factions, it would be closer to Arcanists: lots of Ca actions, giving you a choice between summoning, blasting, or altering your own crew Gremlins: High risk/High reward play, Where Succeed or fail, you do so spectacularly Outcasts:tricky play with different focuses. hard to pin down, as each outcast master has a completely different specialty. Neverborn:hit hard, but don't do ranged well. Monsters. Guild: undead cowboys. (everyone is thinking it. come right out and say it.) 10T:cross faction play Ressers: a lot of summoning and tough models. I just really think that trying to classify the factions breaks down because several factions have no real identity. Arcanists really break down into 3-4 subfactions, Outcasts have no real faction identity at all, 10T is made of all factions, and even Neverborn have enough variety that you can't just say "big, fast hard hitting monsters" any more. If I were going to try, I'd start by listing out all the masters by faction, and what they facilitate in their crews in that faction, then pick out the points they have in common, and the points that the fewest have for their weaknesses.

Huh. Apparently Ramos is a gremlin. Who knew?