Rathnard

23 hours ago, WWHSD said:

I guess I’m not sold on the value of hiring an 8 point model whose entire purpose is to make your opponent cheat 2 or 3 cards in a game.

The Samurai is great not solely because it encourages your opponent to cheat, but because (with the Earth upgrade) he's an absolute tank and a threat at any range. At melee he's got an armour-ignoring sword, then at range he's got a Gatling gun that can put out some obscene damage at 14" thanks to it's raking fire trigger. Honestly with a triple positive it's not that hard to keep flipping/cheating rams to hit 2-3 models per AP.

As for encouraging your opponent to cheat, it's just one half of a win-win situation for you. If they cheat and you miss (remember with a triple positive they're usually cheating first) then they're one card closer to a Misaki Assassination run and the damage on an Earth Samurai is not enough to neuter them. 5 Wounds with Armour 2 is still hard to get through and you can recover the damage with a Low River Monk or Obsidian Oni. But if they choose to save their card and not cheat, they've just made it easier for you to keep shooting their models up with your Raking Fire trigger. So the Samurai is either emptying their hand, or your opponent is willingly letting you win duels to deal more damage to them. Win-Win.

The Lotus Eater looks like a good addition for Discard Misaki, but I wouldn't say it replaces the Samurai at all. My approach with Discard Misaki is to build a crew that can force cheating/discards early and often. With his 14" Gatling Gun the Samurai is perfect for this. In most games he's opening up on targets from Turn 1 (with 1-2 pushes from the likes of Lust or Mr Graves), whereas the Lotus Eater instead has to waste AP getting within 6" to start throwing out Threaten attacks. Not to mention that shooters like the Samurai encourage your opponent to come to you (as opposed to you chasing them down), which is a big advantage in its own right. 

I'm not saying the Lotus Eater is a poor choice. In fact once they're out I'm pretty tempted to try them in a more scheme marker-focused Misaki crew. But it definitely doesn't outright replace the Samurai. IMO he just offers too much to a Discard-Misaki crew. 

Misaki's actually one of my favorite Masters to play. On the surface she seems pretty simplistic - just ninja-flip into combat and start lopping off heads. But there's alot more to her playstyle than that, especially if you want to use her well.

The way I see it,  there's a few (not mutually exclusive) ways to play Misaki and her crew;

1. Misaki the Loner

Basically build a crew that's going to get the job done and score you VPs, then equip and play her as an independent murder machine. The benefit is that she's pretty good at killing things and with your crew not relying on her being around, it won't matter too much if she dies. In this way you can treat her almost as an expendable missile. 

2. Smoke and Shadows

Build a Last Blossom crew that will let you use Smoke and Shadows to both throw up cover and teleport powerful minions like the Wokou Raiders or Jorogumo around the table. This seems pretty good on paper, but in practice I've found it to be not worth the trouble. IIRC you need a Mask to get the teleport off (which competes with Misdirection, if you take it) so at best you're only teleporting a few models around over the course of the game. And at least in the games I've tried it, it's never done anything for me. Still, if you want to give it a shot, go for broke. ;)

3. Alpha Strike Misaki

Ten Thunders are pretty good at throwing around AP and push effects to friendly models, and with Misaki you can really take advantage of this to turn her into a super-charged killing machine. Basically you take models like the Shadow Emissary, Mr Graves and Senesei Yu to push her up the table, give her additional AP when she activates and sometimes even apply additional buffs. Then when she activates, she charges into the enemy crew and kills their key model/s with her glut of AP and buffs before your opponent has a chance to properly retaliate. Like any Alpha Strike it can be devastating when it goes right, but if it fails or she doesn't kill enough, you'll likely find yourself with a dead Misaki and a crew that isn't really equipped to handle the opponent without their Master. To be fair, this is a playstyle with Misaki that's discussed online alot. I'm not personally a fan though. It just feels too much like putting all your eggs in one basket, which is why I prefer to build a crew that complements, but isn't dependent on Misaki. 

4. Discard Misaki

One of Misaki's best tricks is her Assassinate trigger to auto-kill anyone who doesn't discard two cards or soulstones. It's potentially devastating, but becomes less so if your opponent has a hand full of cards (especially considering the suit requirements of activating the trigger). So if you really want to take advantage of Misaki's Assassination trigger, the best approach is to build a crew that can force as much cheating and discard effects on your opponent as possible. Obvious examples are the likes of Yamaziko or Misaki's own Misdirection upgrade, but attacks that your opponent simply MUST win help alot too. Oiran can be good at this with their Ca 8 Lure (even if you don't have the suit, just the threat of it can be enough to force your opponent to cheat), as are my favourite models in the Faction - Samurai (the damage they take if they miss their Gatling Gun attack can make it very tempting to cheat). Attacks with a natural positive to the flip can be great too, since you're more likely to win the initial flip and force your opponent to decide whether to cheat first. 

All of this can whittle down your opponents hand for a potential Assassination run with Misaki but perhaps more importantly, it encourages your opponent to be really cagey with their conytrol hand. They're less likely to use effects that require them to discard a card, or cheat duels they might otherwise want to win. So as long as even the threat of an Assassination run is there, you're crew is already at an advantage vs your opponent. This is my preferred playstyle for Misaki, and it's why she's my favourite Master in the game. ;)

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To be honest t's been a while since i pulled out my Ten Thunders so I'm a little rusty on what everything does (mainly with the newer models). But from what you've got in your collection you seem to have all the elements for a solid Misaki crew. 

Given my preference for Discard Misaki, my immediate inclination is to grab the Oiran and Yamaziko (minus Smoke and Shadows ;) ). Then the Shadow Emissary (because it's just amazing, even before taking the Misaki Conflux) and some combination of the Crime Bosses and Wokou Raiders. Then I'd spend the last few SS on a few cheap models (Shang and/or Tanuki are my preference) for support, scheme running and to pad out the activations (you generally want 8 activations, 7 at minimum).

Of the others, Performers might find a place as a scheme/anti-scheme runner, especially with the Oiran's trigger on her attack to make Showgirls untargetable. Akaname and Fermented Monks play pretty well together and Wandering River Monks are great for scheme running.  Ototo is a nice melee tank, but you might want some healing to go with him to make sure he doesn't die too quickly. Torakage are cool, but they've proved as useful as they look on paper for me. 

Make it stop. Please.

I've never played Gibbering Hordes, so take this as a bit of TheorySide based on my experience with the game as a whole.

Split in Two, while great, doesn't feel like a necessary part of the Eel's playstyle. Perhaps if you find yourself with 4-5 Reinforcement Tokens (not unlikely if your opponent doesn't try to kill or Pin it) you'd use it, but otherwise it seems like a big risk to strip away its best defense for a turn. In any case while you might get two on the board, you'll almost never have the time/tokens to poop out a third. So if it were me I'd buy two, but wouldn't be upset with one if I couldn't otherwise afford it. 

As for Eggs, they're a very cheap filler unit who can be eaten for Glory, and can be summoned by Karkinoi (although they'll probably be trying to kill things most of the time). Given their disposable nature I suspect two...possibly three would be enough: 1-2 to deploy with your company (who'll then likely get eaten within the first few activations), then a third in case the Karkinoi decide to sit around summoning eggs for a turn. 

The good thing about eggs is that they'd be really easy to scratch build if you wanted. So you could buy one or two official minis, then model up a few more just in case you need them. 

7 minutes ago, Atoli said:

ok but his ability is very suit dependant. In your experience those traps pop up often? and what you do when he is engaged?  

It's suit dependent, sure. But it's only a 6 that you need (from memory) and few other models tend to need that suit (especially if you design your crew that way). Also if all else fails he's still pretty good at shooting things for his cost. If he's engaged and has some traps around he can hold his own in melee for a bit, otherwise you can get him out with your own push effects or if all else fails, leave him to his fate while you tend to more pressing matters (because why would a 6SS model be essential to your plans?  ).

This is also a good reason why I don't deploy him off on his own, without support from the rest of my crew! 

I've never used Dade, but the Pathfinder has been a consistent inclusion for alot of my Guild and 10-T crews. He's an alright shooter, but what makes him shine is the ability to throw out traps to distract and delay enemy models. Like @Ludvig I don't deploy the Pathfinder too far forward, but rather in a position that can cover a decent chunk of land with his shooting. Anyone trying to get past him has to deal with the traps he's pooping out and his shooting (of course), which usually allows me to hold them up while ideal with other parts of the enemy crew. 

Arcanists? Ugh, I'm so sorry for you... 

Seriously though, congrats on the prizes.  Arcanists might not be my favorite faction but I'm definitely a fan of both Ironsides and Kaeris. 

I think if you have more than three Sorrows in play (ie. your opponent hasn't been swatting them down ASAP), you've already won the game.

3 should be plenty.

I'm taking a similar approach to @-Loki- with regards to terrain - my Trees and Wild West Buildings should be more than enough to cover a 6x4 (possibly two 6x4's) for ToS. Of course finding the time to actually paint said terrain is another matter...

That said, I'm also working on markers of my own. Since I'm going with Burning Man that means Portal markers, plus a bunch of the standard 50mm objectives you need for most games. I'm getting these cut from MDF, hopefully with a 3D version and a "flat" version for when I need to place fireteams on top of them. 

[MODHAT]I've just issued a warning related to one of the posts on this thread.

Please guys, keep it clean and keep it respectful. Debate on the errata is great, but if it descends into personal attacks again then I'm going to have to issue more warnings and if necessary, close the thread.[/MODHAT]

Yeah, Zoraida is a major character in Malifaux. As a kind of seer she's been manipulating those around her to influence fate in the way she sees fit, although more recently she's had a bad run, having been well and truely outplayed by both Titania and Nytemare.

@Elsondwarf If you want to know more about Zoraida, there's a great story that touches on her past in Shifting Loyalties (one of the Malifaux expansions), starting from pg 137. It's one of my favourites, and heavily features Lilith and Pandora too.

I started with Pandora and shortly after Zoraida (because early M1E Pandora was broken as hell). But once I got away from Neverborn, my next Master was Marcus. This was still M1E, when Marcus was largely considered the worst Master in the game. Of course it's for that reason i tried him - I wanted the challenge.  As it turns out he was not as bad as everyone had pegged him as. I won or placed high in a few tournaments with him but most importantly, he was alot of fun to play! 

With M2E I've not played alot with Arcanists, despite having all the Masters (also true for most other Factions). When I do play however, my favourite is Ironsides, followed by Kaeris. The former has just been alot of fun to throw around, and the latter is another master that people don't rate. I've still not figured out how to get the best from her, though - she's a tough nut to crack! 

I magnetised the tail piece when I assembled my Shadow Emissary. Without the tail it fits easily into my 2" pluckfoam tray.

Mind you, I suspect my advice won't be that helpful if you've already assembled the beast.

I figured it was time for an M3E release in 2018, but with The Other Side coming out in March I expect Wyrd will probably want to wait at least another year to give their new system some breathing space. With that out of the way, here's what I'd like to see;

- Location rules, for stuff like fighting in the Bayou, the sewers, maybe even on Earth! This used to be a thing in M1E and it's also seen action in the M2E campaign rules a few waves back. So something that's not campaign-specific to spice up both competitive and casual games would be neat to see, IMO. 

- Balanced, "competitive" Avatar rules. If I'm being honest I doubt this will happen - Wyrd clearly tried to get Avatar rules right but the best they've managed over two editions are campaign-specific (ie. non-tournament) upgrades. Maybe a fresh approach on Avatars could bring them back with a vengeance, but I'm pretty sure this will remain a pipe-dream.

- Models with rules for both Malifaux and The Other Side. I don't care what they do or what they are, whether they're limited edition or not, I want me some crossover models!

- More ways to play existing Masters/Factions. Wyrd already did this with Broken Promises/Wave 5, both with the Master upgrades and new models. I expect that to continue in some fashion with Wave 6, probably not with more Master upgrades, but certainly with models. 

- A cheap Crossroads Seven minion. Playing a full CR7 crew definitely has its issues (big, gaping issues you can drive a truck through ), and yeah, the fact that Wrath can lead a 50SS crew was likely more of a fun afterthought than a serious design brief. But in the games I've played they've still been alot of fun to mess with. Especially when you're one of the more experienced players in your area and don't mind the handicap! While I don't ever expect Wrath and the Crossroads Seven to be equal to any other Master at 50SS, I'd nonetheless love to see some extra options for Wrath's weird little crew.

[MODHAT] Hey Guys, it looks like the thread has gotten a little off track. Given that this is a thread about Titania, could we steer the discussion specifically toward getting the most out of her? Thanks! [/MODHAT]

Speaking of which, I know in our local meta our Titania player gets alot of value out of having a Sorrow or two on hand for the Misery damage. They've always been a priority target when I face Titania, yet nobody else outside our meta seems to talk about them. Is this something you've experimented with in Titania crews? 

21 hours ago, wobbly_goggy said:

I get that. But look at all the factions... Guild isn't just humans, for example. Lots of robot things. The factions aren't just composed of one type of creature. Yeah they're not gremlin creatures, but I don't think that matters. It's just a name... There's nothing stopping you referring to it as the Bayou faction

Actualy Guild is fine in this regard. There's nothing about the faction that that implies humans only. Rather, they're all characters aligned with the Guild organisation as a whole. So robots and other non-humans can justifiably considered "Guild".

The same can be said for Neverborn, Ten Thunders and to a slightly lesser extent, the Ressers and Outcasts.

Arcanists get a bit tricky since alot of the characters are M&SU, not technically Arcanist. However since the M&SU is basically a front for the Arcanist organisation then you can justify them as being Arcanist-aligned... even if the characters don't themselves realise it!

(Mind you, a case can definitely be made to split the M&SU away from the Arcanists into their own faction...especially considering some of the recent developments in the story. But that's for another thread).  

Austringer? Deliver Orders should make them pretty good at getting scheme markers where you need them.

14 minutes ago, dancater said:

As to abandoning factions all together, that I think would be more problematic and complicated and to be honest take something from the game.  Lots of issues, re-writes and potential loss of character in some ways.  

Oh yeah, ditching Factions would definitely not be a simple thing. It's more of a mad-cap idea that would require alot of work to iron out any issues. 

Damn @Omenbringer, and here I was just suggesting a name change for the faction!

Personally I agree that the game is due for an edition change, both to re-balance the model range wholesale and clear up parts of the core rules. Naturally, that'd also be the time to think about changing Faction names or messing with other aspects of the game. 

Regarding Factions losing their distinctiveness, I agree that it's been happening with successive waves, but I'm undecided as to how "bad" that really is. Delving into new styles for each faction can keep things interesting for players, for instance the Domadors (sp?) giving limited access to Resser minions for the Guild. Stuff like that makes me want to go back and try Masters/Factions I might have long since lost interest in, and that can only be a good thing IMO. 

That said, I personally like the idea of further restricting crew hiring pools, both to open up design space and to maintain tighter control over a given Faction or Master's playstyle. Splitting all the factions in two was an idea that I've pondered and seen discussed. In the case of Gremlins you divide them into "Bayou" and "Gremlin" Factions, with the model range being in one of the two (or occasionally both, dual-faction style). That would allow stuff like the Gremlins retaining a "random" theme (Bayou Gremlin style) while the Bayou Faction models are more uncontrollable (pig-style). 

The other idea I recently had was to almost do away with Factions altogether, and restrict Masters to hiring models with specific keywords. For instance Ulix would get Pigs while Ophelia would have to stick with LaCroix. Then you'd allow for limited hiring outside that starting pool, Merc-style. So Ophelia could hire a pair of Slop Haulers if she really wanted, possibly with a 1SS merc tax 

Anyway, none of this is up to me, so I guess we'll have to see what happens with a new edition, whenever that new edition comes along.

My desire to finally get these models is only slightly tempered by wondering when I'm going to find the time to paint them.

While I absolutely agree that 10-T archers need a buff, I feel like you missed the core of why they're currently unplayable. It's true that they're ridiculously fragile, easy to counter and hence overcosted for what they do, but the main issue is that they're a sub-par shooter surrounded by in-faction shooters who are far superior in almost every way. It's not just the Katanaka Sniper that the archer competes with. It's the Pathfinder, the Samurai and even the Austringer and Rifleman (with McCabe) that completes for the same space as the Thunder Archer.

All of those other models have something that makes them stand out from the rest, something that gives you a reason to take them in the right circumstances. However all the Archers have is Blot the Sky (which isn't that great, even with the upgrade) and the ability to ignore other models and shoot into engagements, neither of which is worth the price tag.

If the archers were 5SS then I think they'd be at least worth considering. At 5SS they'd be a fragile, yet cheap shooter who can support your crew from behind your lines, which gives them a decent niche in the otherwise competitve world of 10-T shooters. 

Yamaziko...she might be fragile but I think she's alright for a 7SS Henchwoman. Min Damage 3 is pretty boss (especially for 10-T) and the discard from her "Tactics" action is brutal when combined with an Assassination-happy Misaki. I've taken her with Misaki before, and I'd gladly take her again. 

High River Monks are sadly just a mess. They offer nothing of note beyond MAYBE putting Burning on models Mei wants to hit. For 6SS, an okay damage dealer just isn't enough, especially in a faction that excels at having versatile models with multiple roles. If I was to try and fix them, I'd probably draw from Carlos Vasquez's/Shenlong's rules and do some of the following;
- make them immune to Burning, then gain Armour equal to their burning condition
- Give them Shenlong's lightning kick, complete with 3" melee range and possibly blast damage.
- Give them Carlo's Flaming Fists attack, complete with 3" range and triggers to spread burning or remove burning from the Monk for extra damage. 

If nothing else, I think the 3" range would give them an interesting niche, and make them super-annoying to attack once they charge in. 

So a bit of late night thinking when I should be doing other things - do you think the Gremlin faction should be renamed?

The naming of the Gremlins Faction has always been a pet peeve of mine. Purely from a rules perspective it causes a bit of confusion when rules start referring to "friendly Gremlin models" - does it mean models with the Gremlin characteristic, or anyone from the Gremlin Faction? I think the community generally agrees it's always the former, but Gremlins are still the only Faction with this potential issue.  

On top of that, you've got the fact that the "Gremlin" Faction isn't really just Gremlins. You've got the pigs and Zoraida of course, not to mention an increasing number of swampfiends (First Mate, Bayou Gator), humans (McTavish, Bayou Smuggler), and even the occasional curveball (Akaname). So while the Faction might still be primarily filled with Gremlins, to calling it the "Gremlin" Faction no longer represents who they are as a whole. 

As per the title, I think my favourite replacement name right now is to name them after their common home - the Bayou. Right now the Bayou is the only thing that unites every character in the Faction (at least as far as I can recall), so it seems fitting to name the Faction accordingly.

Thoughts?

So another possible clue I missed until now. The Emberling (Mei Feng's Totem, back in Book 1) has an ability called "Spawn of the Ember Dragon". It might be a bit of a stretch, but do you think this could be a link to the other half of the Tyrant, Dragon?

Oh damn, you're right @Carecalmo. And here I was, thinking I was so smart for picking up on it.

post has been edited to erase my shame.  

Personally I'd recommend Samurai, Mr Graves and either the Obsidian Oni or Low River monks.

Samurai give you some great shooting and tempt your opponent into cheating to make them miss (very handy when Misaki has her discard or die "Assassination" trigger). They're also pretty tough and solid in melee, so there's very little not to like about them. 

Mr Graves provides another melee beater, plus he can help push misaki into position to save her walking like some kind of chump.

Obsidian Oni pair really well with Samurai (they can heal them easily, plus they're decent at both range and melee), and Low River Monks are good support models who also offer healing, but additionally condition removal and scheme marker placement. They're also very cheap in SS, so well worth having. 

There's other great options for Misaki or Ten thunders in general, the common ones being Tengu, Yasunori, Lust, Sensei Yu or the Shadow Emissary. But despite what some might say you don't NEED them to have a good Misaki crew. Most of those are also pretty expensive or come with other models your friend might not want, so there's no need to rush into buying them.