Omenbringer

I would like to see the Bayou Gremlin's Minion Number increased.

I will check the stock at my LGS next time I go. I seem to recall them having at least one.

On 2/7/2019 at 3:26 PM, matt said:

Hey Guys,

This is a new version of Som'er Teeth Jones and the Big Hat Crew. So please take a look over it and give us your honest feedback. Our intent with this update is to make Som'er's crew feel a bit more cohesive and really push for a horde style of play while also bringing in some Gremlin chaos and flare. 

Feel free to discuss the proposed version of Som'er in this thread.

New-BIG HAT.pdf

Old-BIG HAT.pdf

While some aspects of the new version of Somer may accomplish your intent of encouraging a Horde Style of play, Lookin' Down On 'Em may actually have the opposite effect. This singular ability coupled with Bayou Bash is likely going to be much more effective in an Elite crew where you aren't providing pass tokens than a horde of weenies where you will.

Also, that card is getting mighty full of text.

I wouldn't be surprised if Wyrd released a new Hanna for M3e that was closer to the KS one, there is some precedent for it. The M2e Lord Chompy Bits is a very close facsimile of the 1st Edition Nightmare Edition that at one point commanded a really hefty price on the secondary market. I absolutely hate the Relic Knights Hanna and would love to see a new version but do hope they dont infringe on the KS one in such an obvious way.

21 hours ago, ShinChan said:

Banjonista:

Free 2" push in 6"
Bayou Blues: Another card for every other dead non-pig within 6". So you get to draw 3 cards for dead Gremlin.
Banjo "Music"  as a decent attack
Pluck the strings could be made from 10" away. Nice combo with Som'er if you forced the opponent to discard his hand.

And regarding B2C, I don't agree that is a liability, but is far to be the super-awesome ability that you're trying to sell. Offensively is great (I already said it many times), but defensively is going to be a gamble, because:

• You can't use it if you have any negatives.
• AND you don't want to use it if you're wining
• AND if you're value is 7+, it doesn't worth the risk on most of the models (everyone wants a Bayou Gremlin dead, since their main purpose is to give you an extra card, but you don't want to risk your important models).

I would also add:

• You have to use the replaced value so it is not like a where you can choose to use it or not.
• And it counts as your cheat for the duel.

Somer's recent rise in competitive play is more likely due to the appearance of Bajonistas than an ability he has had from the very start of the edition. There is a reason 1st edition Somer had Survival of the Fittest erratad very early to prevent stacking with other models that had it.

But at this point, I really dont care anymore. The devs will do what they think is best and the rest of us will have to make our own decisions about them.

1 minute ago, trikk said:

I disagree. You have a weak hand. Your models shoot. Misses. You can reflip. You got a bad trigger on the attack? B2C to reflip. I'd gladly take it on any master I play with.

But you cant take it on any master you play, only a handful of Gremlin Models have it and only one Master.

As you stated though

46 minutes ago, trikk said:

I don't know the Big Hat models and I'm not going to debate if they are ok

You are arguing against players who know these models and have much more experience than you do. No point in discussing this further as you will not change my opinion and I am very unlikely to change yours.

Ah the joys of open play testing...

4 minutes ago, trikk said:

If you need an 8 to win a duel its usually worth the risk. Basically every competitive player I know found it super strong in M2E (both Gremlin and nob-gremlin)

8 is a value higher than the statistical average for Bayou Two Card. It is less than a 50-50 crap shoot that is more likely to drop lower than a tie or higher and you have to use the second result as it is your cheat. It really isn't that great. If it was Somer would have been placing much higher in organized competitive play events and much more consistently.

19 minutes ago, trikk said:

I don't know the Big Hat models and I'm not going to debate if they are ok or not but B2C is very powerful because it makes potshots a lot more reliable (basically you get a positive to attack if you don't want to cheat). If your opponent hits you with a moderate card you also have a pretty big chance of getting a higher result than him for free. 

This is definitely not true or statistically accurate.

Its best use is in damage flips where you can get a second chance at higher damage, but even here you have to hit well enough to cheat at all, and with Gremlin stats that isn't guaranteed. Finally, as @ShinChan states, it is your models cheat so you have to use the new result even if it is lower. This is why Bayou Two Card isn't as great as it looks. It has a narrow range of benefit with a larger range of detriment.

11 hours ago, Thatguy said:

Y'all Watch This?

Suicide Gremlins.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

After, years and years of playing Somer and his crew in both 1st and 2nd editions, I feel safe in stating that the only real balance he needed was with negating the interaction between Survival of the Fittest and Get Your Bro. I have never agreed with using Get Your Bro as a card draw mechanic. A single line addition to Get Your Bro could have stopped this.

2 hours ago, Distruggiuova said:

I don’t like the kamikaze feeling of “Make me proud, boy”, gremlins are supposed to be expendable, yes, but where is that pulse coming from? They aren’t stuffed gremlins! I’d probably change it to something like “Somer shoot the gremlin, generate blasts as if enemy and friendly remaining Bayou Gremlins gain buff till end of turn”

Well that is not entirely true...Bayou Gremlins exploding has been a thing since the very beginning of the game. There was also a non-PC name for it. It was one of the few methods Gremlins had of dealing with 1st edition Hamelin. It was continued in M2e but moved to an upgrade card. Not often utilized but it was a tool in the box.

In regards to Somers Bigger Hat than You, would returning to the 1st edition version, titled A Gremlin's Luck be a better option? It only had a 12" range and a lowish TN without a resist but did require Somer to suffer wounds to cause the control card discard, one for each card.

While I agree that the range could have benefited from a reduction to perhaps 12" both @Thatguy and @ShinChan are proving my point. Bigger Hat than You wasn't OP'ed or even very reliable, however, when it did go off, it was often memorable. This is much more true when it removed an opponents killer hand.

A lot of the M3e fixes for Somer and his crew seem very reactive to things that were perceived to be overly powerful but in actuality were very difficult to setup, sustain, or count on. The first time you see these abilities they are daunting and negative, however,  after that they become much less worrisome and easily countered.

36 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Against higher willpower masters it didn't do much. But if they were WP 6 it was stronk. Activating Somer early using up your the hand for a strong Somer activation and throwing a 13 to dump both hands was great. I have had it backfire with a cheated red joker, though.

OP might be hyperbolic, but I can definitely understand why people didn't enjoy playing against it.

This is an example of the exact weakness of Bigger Hat than You.

To really be effective Somer has to go early in the turn, like activation 1 or 2. This locks him down in a lot of ways. Secondly, Somer needs to prioritize his other actions to ensure he can still have a presence on the table after Bigger Hat than You. This often depletes at least some of Somer's control hand (at least it has in the games I have played, and yes even when running Super Solo Somer). This means that Bigger Hat than You is usually going last in Somer's activation. If it is his last action then really, your opponent only needs to stop it once. Barring a Red Joker flip from the deck, then your opponent is fairly likely to have something to cheat it with. Sure the lower WP Masters can struggle against it, but if they have a control hand worth protecting then it shouldn't be to difficult to beat.

Now when the perfect storm rolls in, say a Red Joker flip for Somer on the cast preventing the opponent from cheating, forces your opponent with a WP 6 Master to have to dump their control hand of awesomeness, it is definitely memorable. While memorable it is not dependable or even really strong as the disadvantages at least balance against the possible gains. Even with low WP masters though, the possibility of Bigger Hat than You just incentives them to use those high value cards earlier in the turn before Somer goes, unless he goes first. This is where I think the real power of Bigger Hat than You is, not its use, but the threat of its use.

Bayou Two Card is another example of this. Is it really a great ability? I would, and have, argued no. It is very inconsistent and really only worth considering in a very narrow range of initial card flip values. If the initial flip is a 6 or 7 then B2C is a real crap shoot, that is just as likely to produce a lower value as higher. If it is a 7 or higher, then B2C becomes more of a liability than a benefit. It is fun, and memorable when you cheat using B2C and a higher value card pops out, but it is definitely not dependable.

Perhaps the attempt in M3e to make Somer predictable is why there is so much push back against the changes. People who were attracted to Somer in 1st and 2nd editions knew his idiosyncrasies and high risk low probability power combos. We learned to compensate or at least try and mitigate them. The Gremlin Gun Lines I run are an example of this. Do I count on hitting well enough to cheat the damage? Hell no, Bayou Gremlins don't have the stats to do that but a hit is a hit none the less and barring the appearance of a Black Joker is goign to produce 1 Damage regardless. Individually a model doesn't have to worry about a single Bayou Gremlin, but in a large enough swarm those bee stings can kil even the toughest Masters.

These things were the gremlins charm. They definitely don't have that feel anymore. Some may be happy with that, but others didn't buy into Gremlins for consistency, but for fun. I haven't had fun playing Gremlins in M3e. This is a shame but this late in the game I don't expect it to change.

I am not trying to diminish anyone else's opinions or experiences, merely trying to express my own.

54 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

The old Bigger Hat than you was OP, but I think we could do something like it as an homage. Like:

Bigger Hat Than You: This model receives in opposed duels with enemy Masters.

We have had some very different experiences with Bigger Hat Than You. I really feel it is yet another one of those Gremlin examples of a perfect storm memory (like Bayou Two Card). In my experiences, it rarely did anything other than ferret the occasional high card for the resist, and then only if the opponent had a hand worth preserving. Perhaps my community just plays with a ton of LOS blocking terrain that really mitigates the impact.

I am really hoping Somer and his crew see some very major redesigns with the next file release. They are a hot mess with a lot of his "benefits" being very nearly negated by a "hard" control hand count and the pass mechanic, not to mention victim stats on Bayou Gremlins (why even have a defense trigger that they are very unlikely to ever win and also likely wont survive if they lose?). He really didn't require this level of adjustment from last edition.

Think you have the wrong attribution there @bedjy

As I said earlier I am glad that this time at least Wyrd has provided a method of reporting play test concerns other than in the public forums. It is something that I am sure is being well utilized by those who have had less than stellar experiences with past methodologies. However, I don't feel as if stating that crews don't play like they used to or have changed substantially from previous versions is overly negative as much as it is a statement of fact. To each his own I guess.

@Davie Battle Reports definitely provide some good data points but have not proven all that successful at keeping things balanced or clear over the years. Plenty of things have been supported by battle reports only to become major issues after general release. Always with the wider community asking "how did this get thru play testing?" Often the answer is it didn't, but the "hard" data and a vocal group supported no modification/ or modification while other play testers were resigned to a silent "I told you so" later.

Play testing is both art and science and every player base largely unique. What one player may find weak, another finds extremely potent. Sometimes feeling or perceptions are just as, if not more, important than the hard data. There are a few M3e inclusions that I definitely feel are going to be major issues once they hit the wild (and yes I reported them during the closed beta). In my opinion, gremlins more so than any other faction have found themselves in this conundrum more often than any other faction or model set as a product of their design. When the cards are favorable and the player skilled, Gremlin crews can do some absolutely wonderful things, when they are not they tend to fall flat hard and fast. Many in the communities I have played with considered my Gremlin crews extremely broken the first time out, after a few games though, they are much less terrified and have become very skilled at countering them.

The crux of this thread's discussion appears to be one side arguing that the faction/ crews they love and play don't feel like their old selves while the other side is arguing it is a new game so approach it as such. A new edition doesn't have to "throw the baby out with the bath water," I would argue that there was an awful lot that could have stayed exactly as it was and still produced an improved experience through surgical rebalancing and core rules clarifications (except the elevation rules which were largely unplayable and needed much more than a scalpel). Again you may disagree, and that is fine, but I would wager a larger segment of the Malifaux community did not expect the significant changes M3e is bringing. I know I didn't and that is one reason I made a suggestion to Wyrd staffers during the closed period to begin "prepping the battlefield" publicly so the community might understand the "why" of the designers changes and hopefully reduce the inevitable player attrition a new edition causes (as I have mentioned previously, this is a major concern for a publisher now that GW is actively courting skirmish level players).

Lastly, I would caution against assuming that other posters were not or did not participate in the closed or open beta sessions (again the internet is a difficult medium for gauging tone, but there does appear to be a dismissive one in some of these postings). Not everyone in a group had to post individually to voice thier opinions or experiences, and not every play test group had access to other groups discussions. It is an even more dangerous assumption now that Wyrd is allowing direct (non-forum) anonymous reporting during the open play test period.

I do appreciate the passion and largely congenial discourse though, and again am glad to see that others are having a very different experience. Should those who are not happy with the final published game decide to leave, then it will fall upon the shoulders of those who are to keep things going.

No offense Bedjy, but you are exhibiting exactly the behavior that keeps many of us from participating in these play tests. That is not good for the community or the game. What you call "Whining" is other players voicing their legitimate concerns about the game. There is nothing wrong with that, it is after all how we arrived at an edition change in the first place. If no one whined about the elevation and LOS rules would the new edition have devoted any development time to improving them? How about all the whining about balance, without that would we even be play testing a new edition?

Your suggestion to

Quote

take a deep breath, look around and come back later in the beta with a fresh sight without heavy expectations.

Will only ensure that when we come back the game would definitely not be what we expected or enjoy and by then it will be too late to adjust anything. I wont speak for anyone other than myself, but this isn't my first rodeo with Wyrd play testing or a Malifaux edition change. While this one has been rather tame in comparison to the last one, the heat is starting to rise as enthusiastic supporters of the changes try shouting down those who are not. Nothing good comes from dismissing or trivializing the legitimate concerns of others as simply whining or faction bias, other than having to rebuild communities when the dust settles. It wasn't easy rebuilding after the last edition change and this one will likely be just as difficult since GW seems interested in pulling in a share of the skirmish game community.

Well I appreciate that Fixxer. I understand wanting the new edition to succeed, I do as well. I have to much money tied up with Malifaux ( It is easier to list the handful of crews I don't own than the ones I do) and way more time invested building communities and play testing over the years to want otherwise. As I said in my original post though, the new edition is bringing much more change than I think a lot of the community was really expecting. Rebalancing and rules cleanup is one thing, and something that definitely needed to occur; however many crews are very different from what they were even in M2e and that is a tough pill to swallow for a lot of folks.

1 hour ago, Fixxer said:

I appreciate an opinion but I couldnt disagree with this more. I normally hate outwardly contradicting people online but these opinions are on the level of misinformation. 

 How are they THAT different? Mah hits stuff, pushes, gets bonuses to initiative, gives a crewwide ability based on suits. Ophelias crew shoots, has arsenal upgrades, and a crew of enforcers that all serve a purpose. Very similar to her other versions. Zipp... he's practically the same with some reservations on "up we go" which was warranted, other than that, his card is practically the same. Brewmaster lost Obey for a Lure with an Obey trigger but also gained a ridiculous melee attack and auras that really wreck crews with poison. He still operates similar in that nobody on the opposing crew wants to be anywhere near brewie. Wong has changed the most due to the introduction of shockwaves but I'd argue that it makes him a bit more interesting. I always found blast masters to be boring in 2E, I like his new playstyle and wold argue that he's the only one that saw wholesale changes.  Somers, plays very similar to his inception. He's a summoner with guns, lots of models, and card draw. I dont see much difference there other than he mightve changed more into a denial master than a 8vp master. Using those extra models for denial or to get in the way because you cannot interact if you've taken a disengage action, bayou gremlins are great at this. Ulix, growing pigs vs summoning them in droves is different but his support is similar. He can get his pigs swinging big and moving/charging out of activation. Ulix has changed a bit, but still has similar properties of support, summoning, glass cannon... 

I wouldnt call any of this stuff BAD from my experience. I understand having a negative opinion based on expectations not living up though. I'd just suggest that examples are presented with possible solutions or ideas. Ulix wouldnt be where he is now without

Well Fixxer, we are likely going to have to agree to disagree but...

1st edition Som'er was an awesome crew with plenty of deep play options. Winning with him required understanding of how each piece could assist the others in overcoming there idiosyncrasies. Things like pig ladders, Bacon bombing assassination runs, and pig boomerangs (many of which I either authored or described for fellow Gremlin players, way back when Somer was widely considered completely non-competitive) were potent but balanced, requiring a combined force approach and significant set up. 2nd edition Somer shifted toward a larger support role with a summon option that could be abused for card draws (I have never really agreed with this but I was only 1 voice during M2e closed play testing). 3rd edition Somer is all over the place. It is difficult to see what he is really focused on. I despise his dissolve mechanic especially when coupled to the pass mechanic. It is this particular change that is most egregious for Gremlin players. In my opinion, out activation is only a problem in crews that weren't designed for it (something I argued during closed play testing) and the Pass mechanic is just a new option for abuse and power gaming.

I have posted my concerns in the Closed beta several times, being accused of having a faction bias when disagreeing with the status quo. After many, many Wyrd closed play test periods (since way back in 1st edition with Rising Powers) and many open play tests, I just don't have the energy anymore to fight the very high noise to signal ratio found in the play test format or the Bullying. I am glad that they are now apparently trying to combat this by offering another, non-forum method of reporting concerns to the developers.

Though this is the internet and tone can be very difficult to gauge, I feel as if you are being incredibly dismissive of players with other opinions that differ from yours. Since I have been around the block a couple of times with this, there really isn't a point to continuing with a discussion that is likely to end with forum warnings being thrown around. You like the changes, cool happy for you, others do not and that is fine as well. In the end each of us will have to make the decision whether we continue with the new edition or not. Currently, I am waiting until the final published version to make my decision and that is the best I can offer.

Well I have two suggestions for you...the first is cheaper.

Grab a bag of split lentils or peas and just glue those down. They look alright though might appear a bit large.

The more expensive option is to use milliput (cheaper than green stuff) with some of Happy Sepuku base stamps. I have had great success with these. Just be sure to use the burts bees wax as suggested and also lightly wet the stamps before pressing. This will keep them clean and ensure they last.

6 hours ago, yool1981 said:

I just started assembling some gremlins for the Zoraida swampfiend theme and I wonder how Gremilin players keep their sanity intact (or maybe they don't 😛). Assembling the gremlin-eating-gator was almost too much for me :D.

That one was definitely a pain. You don't see many that are attached. I just resigned myself to adding a large glob of green stuff loosely sculpted to try and mimic an arm to aid in attachment. Still try to limit the playtime with it.

Wait until you get to Burt Jebson! His head is in so many pieces. At least we haven't seen many more Yan Lo beards in recent releases.

22 hours ago, Maxooo said:

I understand you are worried, but to be fair from what i can see: i assume you can pin to the base through the knee and maybe even all the way into the empty belly. I might be wrong, its just what i guess from the render, at least that's what i already plan to do

It's my way of saying "we've seen way worse" ^^, it doesn't mean: let's make the same mistakes again, but I'm at a point ( kinda bulletproof fiddly feets wise now lol ) where I prefer they let their imagination and creativity go free and make nice artistic scuplts; if i wanted big chunky heroic scale and easy to build minis i would play only GW ^^ but that's my personal take i understand where you coming from for sure !!!

ps: we haven't seen the 2nd Spit Hog scuplt yet, so maybe the other one is "safer"

Gremlin knees aren't exactly beefy so pinning isn't really a great option, especially when the size of pin that is going to be needed is probably very near the size of said gremlin leg.

I am all for artistic expression but these are intended to be "play pieces". Small contact points aren't great for that, particularly when there is a significantly larger and heavier piece of plastic (even if it is very likely hollow) sitting way up on top. Adding a second Gremlin for additional support wouldn't take away from the artistic expression much if at all honestly.

Please Wyrd add another Gremlin underneath for support. That is a large model above a very small contact point that I am not looking forward to regluing every time it falls off.

On 1/17/2019 at 6:38 AM, Davie said:

I can tell you, we have some very neat tricks in M3E Beta. Scamper for Example is crazy good. Growing Piglets into Warpigs is amazing etc.

While I think Ulix took the fewest hits in M3e growing piglets is no where near as good as Ulix's outright summons in M2e (which probably did need to be toned down).

On 1/17/2019 at 7:39 AM, Wildcard626 said:

Can't put my finger on it just don't like the new stats and abilities just doesn't feel like the gremlin faction and models I fell in love with. Francois is not the mean do or die guy he was with dumb luck etc every models changed in one way or another from swinecursed to trixibelle  to zipp their just not who they were in m2e 

Many of the changes seem inconsistent, while a lot have received adjustments down, some have changed in surprising ways for the better. I like some but dislike many others.

I think the primary reason Gremlins dont feel like themselves (aside from another faction name change) is the proliferation of Healing among all factions. While I don't have numbers, it definitely feels like every faction has decent healing abilities or actions now, that is very troubling and surprising giving the frequent complaints about Slop Haulers. A low cost, low wound model (like a Bayou Gremlin) with access to healing is not as dominating as a high cost, high wound model with it (looking at Lady Justice as a sterling example of this).

On 1/17/2019 at 7:51 AM, Davie said:

if you Keep on comparing m3e to m2e you'll have a bad time.

M3E is a new Thing, yes. Some changes hurt, yes. Some are awesome. Try to keep a fresh and open attitude to M3E. It's worth it.

Yes, some models have lost some of their individuality, but what M3E really does really really well is giving far more models a place to shine.

I have some serious heart burn with this sentiment. Comparisons between editions are inevitable and trying to dissuade them is disingenuous. A lot of the community were not expecting the wholesale changes that they are seeing. More than a few crews now play completely different than they used to. Somer is a great example. He has changed significantly with each new edition, negating many of his previous crew choices and play styles. He definitely doesn't feel or play anything like his original version, and that smarts quite a bit for someone that has played and sung his praises from very near the start of the game (when he was called the least competitive master/crew in the game).

I do agree that M3e has made many models more playable now. The real question is will it stick, or will everything be undone with the next released supplement? Rebalancing and making things more playable was a design intent of M2e and it didn't really last or even succeed.

On 1/17/2019 at 1:29 PM, wizuriel said:

You still limited by the rare 3 limit so I wouldn't go with more than the original 2

Not a big fan of the addition of Rare values to models that never had them. Bayou Gremlins are a perfect example, though they are now trending toward a more positive value. Too bad I have 14 along with 9 Piglets (not to mention my 4 Skeeters that were allowed in 1st edition).

Overall, M3e has produced a lot of mixed emotions for me. On one hand, I am ecstatic about  some of the changes, elevation rules that might actually function on a tabletop, a return to theme, and the new Shockwave mechanic. On the other, I am disappointed with some of the rebalancing attempts (and not just in the Gremlin/Bayou faction), though to be fair nothing is completely carved in stone just yet. This is the primary reason I am not as involved in play testing as I have been in the past and why I am playing a lot of other game systems than I ever have before. Figure both of these things will aid in approaching the new edition with fresh eyes and ease the stings that are inevitable.

What I am very thankful for...Wyrd is managing this edition change a lot more effectively than the last one. The Waldo's Weekly articles are great for explaining the designers intent with specific models. And, so far, it seems like the community is not as adversarial as it was during the last edition transition. Perhaps entire communities won't have to be rebuilt this time. I am optimistic but also perturbed. I think this is a normal reaction when things are changed in a major way. Somer is not the Master/ or crew that I fell in love with so many years ago (and I am not talking about when there were abuses like the Infinite red joker draws or skeeter summons which I worked very hard to have fixed) and that is a hard pill to swallow, but I will enjoy relearning him. As a whole, Malifaux is not the same game that I fell in love with either, but understand why many of the changes were implemented. I do wish each new Malifaux edition didn't have a feel of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater", probably somewhat inevitable given the high turnover of lead developers/ designers though.

These are just my thoughts and opinions and no more valuable than anyone elses. As always, everyone should judge for themselves.

Pretty sure my LGS in Cleveland still has a metal one available. Let me know if you need the contact info.

Now that is amazing. Well done.

Very nice work. I will have to show these to my wife, she is in the middle of painting them up.

You have a fairly wide range of possibilities with Abyssinia (Ethiopia). I might suggest something along the lines of typical savanna broken up with muted green brush accents and orangish browns for dirt (citadel Martian Soil triad or Arid Martian Soil).