Interaction of Hamelin's Indicriminant Void and the Gremlin Taxidermist's Dud?

[Omenbringer]

While assisting a new Some'r Player with developing his crew in this thread here relevant part is in post 24. I stumbled upon an interesting interaction that I would like to confirm.

Essentialy it is a timing question:

Hamelin's Indiscriminant Void occurs during the Start Closing Phase.

The Gremlin Taxedermist's Dud? occurs during the End Closing Phase.

If Hamelin is killed by exploding Stuffed Piglet's using Bacon Bomb! via the Taxidermists Dud? ability during the End Closing phase what happens to Hamelin?

My guess is that he would in fact die since the portion of the turn that would allow him to benefit from Indiscriminant Void has passed yet the turn has not ended until after the Dud? action has completed (and hopefully killed him) so he wouldn't be able to come back in the next turn becasue he died in the current turn.

Additionally would this work against Leveticus as well?

[karn987]

The Death Marshall burying a Stolen idea is a fairly unique situation which would almost never happen. Having said that, I think Hatchet's point about Hamelin's respawn being based on "the" end closing phase not "an" end closing phase is important.

Having said that, wouldn't his respawn be classed as an effect applied to Hamelin when he hits 0 wounds which lets him either come back or die at the end of the turn? And as it doesn't specify when the effect ends it ends in the end closing phase, meaning if he's not back by then he dies. That's consistent with current rules and the model's rules.

Well I would agree with you except...how can it apply to Hamelin or Leveticus? Both of them are dead and as we know, dead models have no effect on them etc. It's more like a world event is set, I know its not a game term but it's how this reads to me. In both cases, Leveticus and Hamelin are dead, there is no arguing that. But because of that... it means they have no effects on them etc. So thats the tricky part, both of these abilities exist outside of the normal rules. It's unique to them and I doubt we will ever see it again.

So simply, I don't think that whole effect mess applies in this case. There is no model on the board to apply the effect to, so it's not relivant I feel. I think it simply comes down to, this is a very unique pair of abilities that exist well outside the core rules and we need a Marshal to give us the intended functionality. We've been able to easily argue it both ways, so lets just resort to setting traps for wandeirng Marshals? *Starts to rig up a snare trap*

[magicpockets]

Well I would agree with you except...how can it apply to Hamelin or Leveticus? Both of them are dead and as we know, dead models have no effect on them etc.

Is that an assumption or in the rules? I only ask because if I make something insignificant and kill it, the ways it's always been played is it stays insignificant. It' makes sense not to bother with effects on dead models as they have no impact on the game, but I've never seen it ruled that that is actually the case.

If we treat the two abilities as effects it ties this up nicely imo.

*come on sketch *

[Mr_Smigs]

Is that an assumption or in the rules?

sadly, assumption based on wording in the rules manual.

of the three "out of play" states mentioned on page 13 of the rules manual,

only Buried states that effects remain on the model when it is put Out of Play

as a killed model is out of play it would imply that all effects on the model are removed.

what impact this has on traits given to the model before it was killled is another matter, as, it's last in play status included those traits...

[Necromorph]

Ahhh, my bad, Omen, misread it like a champ. Still though, I would say that once the end of that turn has passed that they would be gone, and lose their chance to come back. If the Stolen or Waif came back on the table, well, they could do whatever, but neither will be doing much w/out their master on the table.

[Hatchethead]

Page 13 of the RM differentiates between killed/sacrificed and buried, stating that killed/sac'd results in being removed from the game whereas buried models are out of play but remain in the game. With regard to killed/sac'd, "they cannot return to play unless a specific effect allows them to do so." This would seem to speak directly to the effects of Shackled and Void, which would support the notion that both are considered effects.

Both abilities require that the model be killed or sacrificed by definition, so it's not a case of the game creating a new out of play state. They're not being pseudo-buried or some such thing, otherwise the ability would never trigger. They're likewise not hovering somewhere between 0 wounds and killed as per Slow to Die, same problem. Page 13 would seem to indicate that both abilities create an effect, but only in play models and buried models can be affected by effects. Thus, the time space continuum is torn asunder.

... it seems that each model is privy to an ability that either allows it to retain a specific effect after being killed/sac'd (remove all other effects, model gains X effect while out of play) or Void and Shackled simply do not create an "effect" by definition of the word. I tend to think it's the former, and said effect will end in the closing phase if not otherwise fulfilled. I still believe "the turn" versus "a turn" is too telling to ignore.

But that's just one more assumption for the pile.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Omenbringer]

That would never be possible. Remember, I said the next time they were able to meet the conditions it would kick in. Not whenever they want, that is absolutely not the intention of the rule nor does the wording support it. It's like saying a weasel could try and argue his Master isn't dead because it may some how get a Wd back on a later turn. You skipped over the key part, the next time they were able to meet the conditions it would kick in. So IE, the next Closing Phase.

The problem is that the new version of Indiscriminant Void from the Malifaux.com Fixes page

If this model is killed or sacrificed during the turn, at the start of the Start Close Phase, Place a Hamelin, the Plagued into base contact with a friendly The Stolen, then sacrifice that model. Hamelin receives -4 Ca until the end of the Encounter.

doesn't have the next turn qualifier only that it occurs "at the start of the closing phase". It leaves enough wiggle room to argue that any Start Closing Phase in which the required model is in play allows the resurrection.

The Death Marshall burying a Stolen idea is a fairly unique situation which would almost never happen.

Corner case for sure but still with in the realm of the possible and probably in need of a definitive answer.

Having said that, I think Hatchet's point about Hamelin's respawn being based on "the" end closing phase not "an" end closing phase is important.

Having said that, wouldn't his respawn be classed as an effect applied to Hamelin when he hits 0 wounds which lets him either come back or die at the end of the turn? And as it doesn't specify when the effect ends it ends in the end closing phase, meaning if he's not back by then he dies. That's consistent with current rules and the model's rules.

Point of clarification: Hamelin doesn't respawn during the End Closing Phase step but during the Start Closing Phase step which is two steps before Dud? would go off during the End Closing Phase step potentially killing Hamelin and causing this whole sequence of events (Leveticus is a bit different since his ability only specifies during the Closing Phase with no particular step specified only that it needs to occur prior to the End Closing Phase step if he wants his Hollow Waifs to be respawned to/ with him).

Note: Despite the response to Karn above, I do agree that the choice of "The Start Closing Phase" wording on Indiscriminant Void implies a distinction of only applying with in the current turn.

Definately think that at this point an "Official Answer" is needed, since even though I do have a "Pig in this fight" I can see the merits of both arguments (yes even yours Karn :aetsch:).

[Omenbringer]

Is it safe to assume that this is in deliberation?

[Issalbotproto]

I'm pretty sure they're trying to get a definitive can't be argued in anyway shape or form ruling.

Besides the RMs have lives too they shouldn't have to be on here constantly to answer everyone of our questions they deserve breaks from this kind of stuff

[Omenbringer]

It was a thinly veiled bump since it had fallen to the second page.

[Korrosion]

Thanks to the Somer/Pockets thread I'm really late to the party here, but was this ever resolved?

[Shank Seamus!]

Prospective hamelin player, bump.

[Omenbringer]

Thanks to the Somer/Pockets thread I'm really late to the party here, but was this ever resolved?

Not as of yet, but thanks for renewing the interest (also you Shank Seamus!)

[Requirement]

Well, hell, now I'm interested.

[Dessicated]

Would still need alot of Stuffed Piggies around the Stolen to which Hamelin choose to deploy next to for it to ever be in question. No?

[Omenbringer]

No you wouldn't need a lot of Stuffed Piglets, due to the timing of the effect resolution it wont matter if Hamelin has any the Stolen on the board or not (so they can be ignored).

The kill occurs during the End Closing Phase (when "Dud?" goes off) two steps after Hamelin would be ble to come back via Indiscriminant Void to a friendly the Stolen (which occurs during the Start Closing Phase). Since you can't go back in the turn sequence and he was killed during the turn he shouldn't be able to come back at all.

Jury is apparently still out (no final confirmation one way or the other from a Rules Marshal) on this highly situational (only really applies to Some'r and Hamelin), difficult to set up (in terms of positioning of all the relevant models) and highly random tactic (Bacon Bomb! being a very random effect in terms of both damage and range).

For the record I am still 100% sure that it would in fact kill Hamelin (assuming he had 0 SS for damage prevention flips and was more than likely already injured) and prevent him coming back.

[magicpockets]

On balance I now also agree this would kill Hamelin