Maybe mismatch between rulebook and FAQ

[icebreaker]

Hey everyone,

 

Last days I've been reading rulebook and FAQ last says and saw one confusing thing.

Rulebook page 25 says:

Quote

Opposed Duel Sequence

1. Declare Soulstone Use

2. Flip Fate Card and Add Stat

3. Choose to Cheat Fate

4. Declare one Trigger

5. Determine Success

Rulebook page 26 says:

Quote

After succeeding: These effects are resolved after Step 5, and only if the model with this Trigger wins the duel.

So as I understand if I have a Attack Action which deal 2/3/4 damage and have "After succeeding" trigger I have to declare "After succeeding" on step 4 then deal damage on step 5 and only after that all to apply the trigger's effect. Correct?

But FAQ says:

Quote

114) The Dreamer’s Safe In My Bed Trigger allows a Nightmare to suffer the effects of an Attack Action as if it had been the target. Does the Nightmare need to be a valid target of the Attack? Does the Dreamer still suffer the effects of the Attack? How does this work with Attack Triggers that cause more Actions such as Onslaught? The Dreamer will not suffer the effects as the Nightmare is doing so instead. The Nightmare does not need to be a valid target of the Attack. If the Attack Triggers additional Attacks which must be made “against the same target” (such as with Onslaught) then the Nightmare will be the target of those Attacks. If the Nightmare is not a valid target for additional Attacks, they may not be made.

And this mean that Dreamer applies his trigger's effect on step 4.

 

Why?!? Why on step 4 instead after step 5 as usual? 

[solkan]

1 hour ago, icebreaker said:

Hey everyone,

 

Last days I've been reading rulebook and FAQ last says and saw one confusing thing.

Rulebook page 25 says:

Rulebook page 26 says:

So as I understand if I have a Attack Action which deal 2/3/4 damage and have "After succeeding" trigger I have to declare "After succeeding" on step 4 then deal damage on step 5 and only after that all to apply the trigger's effect. Correct?

 

From the rulebook on Declare Triggers:

Quote

If the model’s duel total meets a Trigger’s suit requirement (see Triggers, pg. 20) it may declare it is using that Trigger. A Trigger’s effect is resolved immediately unless indicated in the Trigger’s description, as it may be resolved later. Some common timing terms used in Triggers are:

•After succeeding: These effects are resolved after Step 5, and only if the model wins the duel.

So there's an odd situation in the rules.  As far as the rules are concerned, the four most common trigger phrases do indicate that the trigger is resolved later (in the "After step 5" step).  In other words, as far as the rules are concerned, "as usual" is backwards and the most frequently encountered triggers are exceptions to the normal timing for triggers.

Note that the bullet point lists for After succeeding and the other triggers are considered to be part of the trigger description (since it's defining what those four specific phrases mean), so their delay is still consistent with the highlighted rule.

Quote

 

 

But FAQ says:

And this mean that Dreamer applies his trigger's effect on step 4.

 

Why?!? Why on step 4 instead after step 5 as usual? 

The Dreamer's trigger isn't "After succeeding".  The reason for the FAQ is to point out that the phrase "After an Attack Action succeeds" is not an elaborate rephrasing of the words "After succeeding".

Because of that fact, you go back to the part of the Trigger rules highlighted in red  "A Trigger’s effect is resolved immediately unless indicated in the Trigger’s description" and resolve the trigger immediately.

 

[solkan]

13 hours ago, icebreaker said:

Just found another confusing for me thing. 

Mysterious Effigy can give "Rapid Acceleration" condition by (0) action. It says "After resolving an enemy Attack which targeted this model, this model may end this Condition to push up to 3" in any direction". 

At what step this ability applies?

There are two different timing regimes at work:

1.  A trigger which says the magic words "After resolving" resolves in the 'After step five' step of the action.  This happens because of the bullet point definition of those words.

2.  Other effects that say "After resolving X" where X is an attack or an action, get resolved immediately after the action is completely resolved.  Note that that can mean any number of generated actions could be resolved, if the 'After resolving an action' effect was in response to a Charge or an attack with a recursive trigger.

There's a disclaimer in the FAQ concerning the perils of improper generalization, I believe that warning applies to your case.  So when the FAQ says this:

Quote

100) What is the timing of Sloth’s “Just Lay Down” Trigger? Just Lay Down happens “after this model fails” which is the same as “after failing,” so the Trigger would take place after step 5 (the Attacker has applied results).

then you can't point to that FAQ entry and start claiming that the same applies to other different phrasings.

In any event...

Quote

(0) Rapid Acceleration: Target friendly Leader within 8" gains the following Condition until the end of the Turn: "Rapid Acceleration: After resolving an enemy Attack which targeted this model, this model may end this Condition to push up to 3" in any direction."

So, say it's Mei Feng vs. Lynch, and Lynch has Rapid Accelaration due to the Effigy putting it there.  Mei Feng's rocking the Seimic Claws upgrade so she has a recursive attack trigger on her Tiger Claws attack.

• Mei Feng declares Tiger Claws, spends her 1AP, declares Tremors, Lynch declares Hold 'em (an "after resolving the Attack Action" trigger).  For the sake of example, Mei Feng cheated a card to get the trigger suit.
  • In "Step 5" damage is applied to Lynch
  • In "After Step 5", the Tremors trigger resolves and Mei Feng takes the Tiger Claws action again.
    • Everybody flips cards for the attack duel, Mei Feng cheats to get her trigger suit, declares Tremors, Lynch declares Hold 'em.
    • In "Step 5" damage is applied to Lynch
    • In "After Step 5", the Tremors trigger resolves and Mei Feng takes the Tiger Claws action again.
      • Everybody flips cards for the attack duel, Mei Feng cheats to win but doesn't have the suit for Tremors, Lynch declares Hold 'em.
      • In "Step 5" damage is applied to Lynch.
      • In "After Step 5" nothing happens.
      • The grand-child Tiger Claws attack has been resolved, so Lynch's Hold third 'em trigger resolves and Mei Feng suffers 2 damage (which her Armor +1 reduces to 1).
      • Lynch could choose to end Rapid Acceleration now.
    • The child Tiger Claws attack has been resolved, so Lynch's Hold 'em second trigger resolves and Mei Feng suffers 2 damage (which her Armor +1 reduces to 1).
    • Lynch could choose to end Rapid Acceleration now.
  • The parent Tiger Claws attack has been resolved, so Lynch's original Hold 'em trigger resolves and Mei Feng suffers 2 damage (which her Armor +1 reduces to 1).
  • Lynch could choose to end Rapid Acceleration now.

The General Timing rules (or at least the printed version in front of me, in case I'm forgetting an errata) state that a Trigger which has the same timing as an Ability gets resolved before the Ability.  I'm presuming that the same applies to Conditions.

 

[Bengt]

The trigger doesn't do anything unless it as applied before step 5.

Technically I guess the Dreamers trigger has incorrect wording. But it's close enough they just made it a FAQ entry instead of changing the card.

[Dogmantra]

Also just in general consider that the FAQ often works more like an errata, so if there's a contradiction, the FAQ takes precedence (e.g. Dumb Luck says the attacker takes half the damage suffered, but the FAQ says that it is half the damage flipped)

[icebreaker]

1 hour ago, solkan said:

The Dreamer's trigger isn't "After succeeding".  The reason for the FAQ is to point out that the phrase "After an Attack Action succeeds" is not an elaborate rephrasing of the words "After succeeding".

So, only the direct spelling of key phrase in descriptions mean delay otherwise trigger applies immediately. From this it follows that Rasputina’s Sub Zero Trigger(And maybe some else. It's just first that I have recalled.) should applies at step 5. So what would be with attacker's "After damaging" trigger that should be applies after step 5 while the attacker was forced to end his activation at step 5?

[Dogmantra]

11 minutes ago, icebreaker said:

So, only the direct spelling of key phrase in descriptions mean delay otherwise trigger applies immediately. From this it follows that Rasputina’s Sub Zero Trigger(And maybe some else. It's just first that I have recalled.) should applies at step 5. So what would be with attacker's "After damaging" trigger that should be applies after step 5 while the attacker was forced to end his activation at step 5?

105) Rasputina’s Sub Zero Trigger states that it immediately ends the Attacker’s Activation. If a model Charges and Rasputina uses the Sub Zero Trigger on the first Attack, would the Attacker still get the second Attack from the Charge Action? No. When the model ends its Activation it immediately proceeds to the end Activation step and it may do nothing further; it may not take any more Attacks, declare Triggers, or otherwise do anything it would normally do during its Activation.

[icebreaker]

 Thanks

[solkan]

6 hours ago, icebreaker said:

So, only the direct spelling of key phrase in descriptions mean delay otherwise trigger applies immediately.

There are three disclaimers to that:

1.  Sloth's defensive trigger was FAQ'd:

Quote

100) What is the timing of Sloth’s “Just Lay Down” Trigger? Just Lay Down happens “after this model fails” which is the same as “after failing,” so the Trigger would take place after step 5 (the Attacker has applied results).

2.  As demonstrated in the Dreamer's FAQ entry and elsewhere, a rule saying that something happens "after" something else is essentially "immediately after" rather than waiting to allow other events to occur.

3.  There are a few "After succeeding" triggers like Taelor's Crushing Blow and From the Heavens which shouldn't be "After succeeding" triggers, because they modify things that are supposed to happen in Step 5. 

 

6 hours ago, icebreaker said:

From this it follows that Rasputina’s Sub Zero Trigger(And maybe some else. It's just first that I have recalled.) should applies at step 5.

Some other examples of triggers that apply during step 5 or even before:

• Malifaux Rat's Swarm trigger applies essentially as soon as it's declared:

• Quote

  C Swarm: Immediately increase the final duel total by 1 for each other friendly Malifaux Rat within 1" of the target.

  Critical Strike applies during Step 5 (because that's when damage is applied)

• Quote

  Critical Strike: When damaging the target, this Attack deals +1 damage for each in the final duel total.

   

• Ulix's Wail of Pork:

• Quote

  Df/Wp (C) Wall of Pork: Immediately increase this model's final duel total by 1 for each friendly Pig within 2" up to a maximum of +2

   

 

6 hours ago, icebreaker said:

So what would be with attacker's "After damaging" trigger that should be applies after step 5 while the attacker was forced to end his activation at step 5?

Dogmantra quoted the FAQ entry already, but I'll do it too.

 

Quote

105) Rasputina’s Sub Zero Trigger states that it immediately ends the Attacker’s Activation. If a model Charges and Rasputina uses the Sub Zero Trigger on the first Attack, would the Attacker still get the second Attack from the Charge Action? No. When the model ends its Activation it immediately proceeds to the end Activation step and it may do nothing further; it may not take any more Attacks, declare Triggers, or otherwise do anything it would normally do during its Activation.

and the related main FAQ:

Quote

48) If a model’s Activation is ended by an Action or an Ability, what happens? What if it was not Activating? If a model is performing its Activation and its Activation is ended by an Action or Ability, then the model’s Activation immediately ends. It may not take any further Actions, resolve any of its Triggers which have not happened yet (even if they were declared), or do anything else that happens during its Activation; it moves to the end Activation step. If an Action or Ability which ends a model’s Activation is applied to a model outside of its Activation (such as during an Action caused by Obey) there is no effect.

For a concrete example using models from the main book:

Sat Mei Feng attack's Rasputina using Tiger Claw.  In trigger declaration Rasputina declares Sub Zero and Mei Feng declares Superheated (an 'After damaging' trigger).  Mei Feng flips moderate damage (it's a 2/4/5 attack).  So Rasputina suffers 4 damage and Sub Zero "goes off", ending Mei Feng's activation and Superheated never resolves.

 

[icebreaker]

Just found another confusing for me thing. 

Mysterious Effigy can give "Rapid Acceleration" condition by (0) action. It says "After resolving an enemy Attack which targeted this model, this model may end this Condition to push up to 3" in any direction". 

At what step this ability applies?

[Adran]

After step 5. so you would be damaged, if the attack deals damage, and then you get the push. because its an ability rather than a trigger, it will happen after triggers. 

So it lets you escape from the second attack of a charge (possibly) but it won't protect you from an onslaught or overpower attack. 

[icebreaker]

This disclaimers make me no sure that "After resolving" from rulebook is the same as "After resolving an enemy Attack which targeted this model"

On 19.05.2017 at 10:14 PM, solkan said:

There are three disclaimers to that:

1.  Sloth's defensive trigger was FAQ'd:

2.  As demonstrated in the Dreamer's FAQ entry and elsewhere, a rule saying that something happens "after" something else is essentially "immediately after" rather than waiting to allow other events to occur.

3.  There are a few "After succeeding" triggers like Taelor's Crushing Blow and From the Heavens which shouldn't be "After succeeding" triggers, because they modify things that are supposed to happen in Step 5. 

Why are you sure that after step 5?

7 minutes ago, Adran said:

After step 5.

 

[Adran]

8 minutes ago, icebreaker said:

This disclaimers make me no sure that "After resolving" from rulebook is the same as "After resolving an enemy Attack which targeted this model"

Why are you sure that after step 5?

 

The ones which don't work, had to not work after step 5, and whist I might wish for clearer wording, if they use a fixed time point, and the trigger works at that time point I am happy to accept that the time point works when the book says it works.