Post-death actions, redux

[HalcyonSeraph]

The recent thread about Collodi killing a model and triggering his command ability was answered thusly:

 

Pg. 32 of the big rulebook:

 

"After damaging: These effects happen after Step 5 and only if the target suffers 1 or more damage from the Action. These effects are resolved before the damaged model is removed if it was killed by the damage."

 

So, when does Collodi's trigger happen?

 

A: After damaging, but before the model is removed. This would mean the model could perform an action controlled by Collodi.

 

 

However, this leaves another question that came up in the thread:

 

Collodi attacks Killjoy, killing him with the damage and triggering his command. He uses that command to make Killjoy attack another model (which we know he can do becuase the trigger resolves before Killjoy is removed from the table), which heals Killjoy. Does Killjoy actually heal and remain alive, or is he still dead?

[Sharp_GT]

I think we can once again have this fall to the common sense type of ruling in that if a model is killed it is killed, regardless of it gaining wounds back again. Although very flavorful to have Killjoy slaughter his way back to life, you still have the instruction to remove him from the table as killed looming over his head.

 

On the technical side of things the rules on killed models give you a game action to carry out, removing the model from the board, and says when that should happen. There are no rules stating that a model that regains wounds would no longer count as killed and ignore that game action. Once a model is killed it is 'killed', that there is no rule for making that no longer true of the model.

[HalcyonSeraph]

I think we can once again have this fall to the common sense type of ruling in that if a model is killed it is killed, regardless of it gaining wounds back again. Although very flavorful to have Killjoy slaughter his way back to life, you still have the instruction to remove him from the table as killed looming over his head.

 

On the technical side of things the rules on killed models give you a game action to carry out, removing the model from the board, and says when that should happen. There are no rules stating that a model that regains wounds would no longer count as killed and ignore that game action. Once a model is killed it is 'killed', that there is no rule for making that no longer true of the model.

 

Common sense does not solve this problem. It is perfectly sensical to say that once he is killed he is killed. It would also be perfectly logical and defensible to say he was killed because he was reduced to 0 wounds, and so if he heals above 0 wounds he isn't killed after all. Either of these would be reasonable rulings and would not break common sense. 

 

I realize that there are no rules saying what happens in this situation. That's why I made the thread.

[zFiend]

There was this same discussion with Black Blood Shaman's Clot trigger I believe, it made 1 wound spilled some black blood around and then it healed 2 wounds. It was written on the official cards that the model needs to survive the 1 damage to receive the heal and so to speak stay alive.

 

So maybe the take precedence from that and let this topic to rest, a dead model is a dead model 

[The Godlyness]

Collodi's action has resolved kill joy is not at zero wounds. Why is he killed? He does not fit the requierments to be dead. It needs a faq.

Killjoy question 2. He attacks ladyj triggers onslaught. First damage flip reduces her to 0 wounds. Onslaught attack killjoy misses he is reduced to 0 wounds from riposte. Does he heal or does he die. (in this case I think he dies tbh)

[Ausplosions]

Do we really need to do this again?

A model is killed when it is reduced to 0 Wounds.

Your can only be reduced to 0 Wounds once.

Then you die. Regardless of heals.

[Aramoro]

After damaging killjoy is on 0 wounds and removed from the table as killed. That effect is pending on killjoy until after the tigger is resolved. Even if he heals he still gets removed from the table as killed as instructed. There's no requirement to be on 0 wounds to be killed, but getting to 0 wounds triggers getting killed.

[Ausplosions]

After damaging killjoy is on 0 wounds and removed from the table as killed. That effect is pending on killjoy until after the tigger is resolved. Even if he heals he still gets removed from the table as killed as instructed. There's no requirement to be on 0 wounds to be killed, but getting to 0 wounds triggers getting killed.

Yup.

[The Godlyness]

So actions resolving are irrelevant? At the end of the Collodi's action kj has not been reduced to 0 or fewer wounds.

Timing issue 85 kj has black blood does he do the one action before he spurts. (inclined to say yes mainy do to the call out box saying triggers before abilites)

At the end of the day it comes down to 0 wounds means no matter what happens you are dying. Unless you are Hamelin/Levi

Or

You can heal.

[Justin]

The lead designer will descend from the heavens on wings of flame, blood pouring from his eyes as he flips the table over and yells at you for killing a model you clearly didn't want to die.

 

Then he will curl into a fetal ball in the corner of the room and rock back and forth as he cries into his hands.

 

 

 

(In other words: we are looking into this. Please stand by.)

[Mister Shine]

[The Godlyness]

The lead designer will descend from the heavens on wings of flame, blood pouring from his eyes as he flips the table over and yells at you for killing a model you clearly didn't want to die. Then he will curl into a fetal ball in the corner of the room and rock back and forth as he cries into his hands.   (In other words: we are looking into this. Please stand by.)

Not going to lie but i am terrified and intrigued

[Malharath]

[HalcyonSeraph]

Patiently waiting for Justin to open one of his many mouths and sing the song that ends the world. 

[The Godlyness]

I get reference. I hope you like text.