vanessa's activated artifact

[Joel]

I think I know this one, but want to ask anyway to check:

activated artifact grants a suit from the casting cost to th Cb of models.

the spell reads:

"Friendly models, including this model, gain the chosen suit to their Cb. The model can activate one Cb Trigger using the suit. Once a Trigger has been activated using that gained suit, the model loses that gained suit."

Am I correct in thinking that, because of the last sentence, the effect of this spell does not end in the resolve effects step, and that a suit granted on turn 1 can be used in turn 3 (for example)?

Edited April 10, 2013 by Joel

[The Godlyness]

yes.

it has a defined end time. (which is when it is used)

[Joel]

thought so

nice to have the confirmation though - makes the ability much more useful too.

thanks!

[Tokaji]

"Friendly models, including this model, gain the chosen suit to their Cb. The model can activate one Cb Trigger using the suit. Once a Trigger has been activated using that gained suit, the model loses that gained suit."

I don't think it does last through the resolve effects, actually. "Once" is not a defined end time. It's more of an if-then statement. It doesn't actually define that the suit lasts until it is used, just that it loses it if it is. Make any sense?

**

There was a discussion about this at some point, but I can't seem to find it.

[Joel]

Once is a time condition though. It says that a condition will change when a condition has been fulfilled - and when is all about time

[Tokaji]

But it doesn't actually say, specifically, "This spell/effect/etc ends..." where every other example of something breaking the rules of an effect being removed at the end of turn does. E.G. Molly's Whispered Secret, or Sam's Flaming Bullets, etc.

[Ausplosions]

until it next activation is also used in Malifaux. Would you argue that is not a defined end time?

[Tokaji]

until it next activation is also used in Malifaux. Would you argue that is not a defined end time?

Not at all, because in every case of the use of until that I can think of, that word is followed with "the end of the turn," or "this models next activation," etc. This is the way I see it: the effect is going to end in the end step, but they put the "Once..." clause in so that people don't interpret it that you can use it multiple times.

Just to clarify this a little more, and this may sound a little strange, but I think the burden of proof is on those who want it to last. We have a standard: if something extends beyond a single turn, through activations, it specifically says so. This wording does not fit into that scheme, and we do have a guide for something that lasts until used. It doesn't follow.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Tokaji

[Joel]

Found the last thread - last post seems to indicate it was intended to last...

[i_was_like_you]

All of it:

Friendly models, including this model, gain the chosen suit to their Cb. The model can activate one Cb Trigger using the suit. Once a Trigger has been activated using that gained suit, the model loses that gained suit.

If we dissect it, though, we can each take a different meaning from it:

Friendly models, including this model, gain the chosen suit to their Cb.

If the spell ended here, we'd conclude that it ended at the end of turn, correct?

But it then goes on to say:

The model can activate one Cb Trigger using the suit.

Okay, that still doesn't change it. It just elaborates on what the model can do with it.

Once a Trigger has been activated using that gained suit, the model loses that gained suit.

Taken by itself, I'd say it just clarifies that once it is used, it's gone, so that a model can't just keep using it.

So, while I'm divided on if it can last past this turn, I'm leaning strongly towards no. It seems that once is merely a conditional clause, stipulating that either the end of turn or using the suit will make its effect go away. It doesn't have the magical word until, which may or may not be a requirement of an effect ending at a specified time in Malifaux rules speech.

With that being said, here's a whole other thread that goes back and forth on the very same issue, also with no Rules Marshal stamp of yea or nay:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?36776-Vanessa-and-activating-artifact&highlight=artifact

[Joel]

I would love clarification from a big hat, hence why I created the thread . I'll continue to discuss this with my opponents pre-game for now and agree a way of playing it in each case.

[Seregon]

I would personally say that the end time is specified to when a trigger with the given suit is used. It would also mean that this spell is a dual-edged sword. If you recieve a suit you do not have a trigger for, you cannot get rid of it or get another suit at a later time.

[Joel]

From your reading of the spell, why couldn't it be cast a second time, giving the targets a second, different suit? (masks of the first cast, tomes on the second, for example).

[Seregon]

I'm assuming that the +suit is in essence an effect that is added to the model, and thus cannot stack. It doesn't specifically say so though, but it feels like being able to have all 4 suits could be kinda broken on some models.

[Joel]

It would take 2 turns of setup though - and there are plenty of things that can get broken in that time if that's all you are doing - the point being its seldom worth spending a third of a game doing them