Downburst and 'this model'

[Serigala]

Downburst (from Misaki's card)

Models within 3" of target enemy model must win a Df-> 13 Duel or be Pushed 4" away from this model.

Does the underlined 'this' refer to the target model or the spellcaster (Misaki or Shang)?

By rights it should be the target model, and the target does not move while other models move away from the target...and potentially towards the caster.

But, I think in terms of common usage on cards, usually 'this model' refers to the model casting the spell. In which case all models would move away from the caster, and the target only determines the centre of the Pulse.

[sharpobjects]

It refers to Misaki.

I stand corrected.

Edited October 31, 2012 by sharpobjects

[Tograth]

This model refers to the caster. The spell is designed to single out a target model and push enemy models near it away from the caster to open the way for the caster to jump in.

[Keltheos]

"This model" always refers to the model whose rule you're reading. In the case of Downburst...Misaki.

[Serigala]

OK. So we have 2 answers...one each way!

But Tograth has suggested another interpretation in that the target model does not move. I thought 'models within 3" of target enemy model' would necessarily include the target model.

I appreciate the apparent intent, but I'm not sure this is clear.

---------- Post added at 05:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:15 PM ----------

Thanks Keltheos.

While you're here, can you please clarify whether the target model could be moved or not?

[Hateful Darkblack]

The name of the spell always made the intent clear to me: Everyone but the target gets pushed downstream, leaving the target isolated.

[FearLord]

The name of the spell always made the intent clear to me: Everyone but the target gets pushed downstream, leaving the target isolated.

A model is always within 0" of itself - the target is also pushed away from the caster.

[Ratty]

The target model doesn't take the test and remains stationary.. all enemy models near him are pushed away from Misaki if they fail their test.

[FearLord]

The target model doesn't take the test and remains stationary.. all enemy models near him are pushed away from Misaki if they fail their test.

Seems odd? I thought models were always "within" any distance of themselves and would only not be effected if it were a pulse or an aura... Seems like there is an inconsistency with the way this is being applied...

[Cats Laughing]

"This model" always refers to the model whose rule you're reading. In the case of Downburst...Misaki.

So if Shang casts it, models are pushed away from Misaki? (My guess: Yes)

If Molly takes the spell via Whispered Secret, then models are still pushed away from Misaki, whether the Necrotic Machine or Molly casts it? (My guess: No)

Or due to Whispered Secret's wording, models would be pushed away from Molly, whether the Necrotic Machine or Molly casts it? (My guess: Yes)

[Hateful Darkblack]

I would assume they get pushed away from the caster, whether that's Misaki, Shang, Student of Conflict, Molly, Necrotic Machine, Doppelganger, or Lazarus after Avatar Hoffman turns Misaki into a Construct.

EDIT: Oh! Oh! or Lilitu when she's in base contact with a Doppelganger that copied Unhealthy Relationship from Pandora. Lilitu could totally also Mimic and cast Downburst then! But I digress. The point is, I'm pretty sure "this model" means the caster.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Hateful Darkblack

[Serigala]

Yes indeed. I would understand Magical Extension effectively adds the new spell to the model casting Magical Extension, so 'this model' would still refer to the model casting, not to Misaki.

---------- Post added at 10:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 PM ----------

...and thanks for the clarification Ratty.

[Ausplosions]

Laughing Cats: it is always the model casting the spell that is considered THIS model.

Always. So a totem casting a masters spell, becomes the model reffered to by THIS.

In relation to Downburst.

Why wouldnt the target model take the test? It is a model within X" of itself...

I can understand why it shouldnt. But as the wording is now, it will.

Just refer to every other instance of the game that uses the key word within...

If the intent was not this, then change the wording.

[FearLord]

If the intent was not this, then change the wording.

Agreed.

[Cats Laughing]

Laughing Cats: it is always the model casting the spell that is considered THIS model.

Heh, misread the opening post, which made me misinterpret Kel's answer.

I thought things were headed in the WarmaHordes direction, where "this model" always refers to the model whose card the ability is written on, even if the spell is cast on some other model or by some other model.

I got it now.

[Addonexus]

Models within 3" of target enemy model must win a Df-> 13 Duel or be Pushed 4" away from this model.

Well as this rule appears to be written in English it clearly states Models within 3" of the target model must make a DF test... this does not imply in any way that the target model should make a test or is indeed affected by it at all but those within 3" of it.

I don't see how anyone can interpret the words in any other way...

[FearLord]

Models within 3" of target enemy model must win a Df-> 13 Duel or be Pushed 4" away from this model.

Well as this rule appears to be written in English it clearly states Models within 3" of the target model must make a DF test... this does not imply in any way that the target model should make a test or is indeed affected by it at all but those within 3" of it.

I don't see how anyone can interpret the words in any other way...

Because of every other rule in the game working that way?

Or perhaps because "within" is defined on page 6 of the rules manual - "When measuring, a base is within a distance if any portion of its base is within or exactly at the indicated distance".

There is exactly 0" between the edge of a models base and the closest edge of the same models base - ergo, a model is within 3" of itself.

Edited November 1, 2012 by FearLord

[Ausplosions]

I don't see how anyone can interpret the words in any other way...

Um, because every single other instance of within includes the model itself?

Like Toshiro: This model gains one conflict token when an undead model within 6" inflicts one or more damage on an enemy model.

It has been ruled that Toshiro is both undead, and eithin 6" of himself, therefore he can generate his own tokens in combat.

His Tekio Juden! Ability also affects himself.

And so on and so forth for every "within" instance in the game.

I'm not sure how you don't interpret it the way everyone else does....

[Hateful Darkblack]

I believe Lady Justice's ability is also not within range of herself, but that's another sticky issue.

I suspect errata will come along in good time.

[Addonexus]

Hmmm well if taken in English within range of something means within range of that item... this would not include the item itself as it is the target of the statement...

and by going by the definition of within as given in the rules again I don't see how the target includes itself... except by some really tenuous interpretation...

but maybe this is how it is intended but I saw it more like a 3" pulse type thing which usually doesn't include the originator itself... I know it doesn't say pulse but to me that's how it reads...

Does X to models within 3" of target / does X in 3" pulse

not dissimilar in effect just different wording... the only question is does it include the model itself? if so then why doesn't it say The target and models within 3" of it must make a DF test?

[Ausplosions]

Hmmm well if taken in English within range of something means within range of that item... this would not include the item itself as it is the target of the statement...

and by going by the definition of within as given in the rules again I don't see how the target includes itself... except by some really tenuous interpretation...

but maybe this is how it is intended but I saw it more like a 3" pulse type thing which usually doesn't include the originator itself... I know it doesn't say pulse but to me that's how it reads...

Does X to models within 3" of target / does X in 3" pulse

not dissimilar in effect just different wording... the only question is does it include the model itself? if so then why doesn't it say The target and models within 3" of it must make a DF test?

Your point is completely invalid.

It is a given fact, that within includes a model's "self".

English or not, that is the way Malifaux works.

[FearLord]

Hmmm well if taken in English within range of something means within range of that item... this would not include the item itself as it is the target of the statement...

and by going by the definition of within as given in the rules again I don't see how the target includes itself... except by some really tenuous interpretation...

but maybe this is how it is intended but I saw it more like a 3" pulse type thing which usually doesn't include the originator itself... I know it doesn't say pulse but to me that's how it reads...

Does X to models within 3" of target / does X in 3" pulse

not dissimilar in effect just different wording... the only question is does it include the model itself? if so then why doesn't it say The target and models within 3" of it must make a DF test?

The only reason pulses and auras are not in range of the model taking the action is because the rules for pulses and auras specifically say they are not effected unless otherwise mentioned.

Downburst isn't a pulse.

[Gruesome]

Hmmm well if taken in English within range of something means within range of that item... this would not include the item itself as it is the target of the statement...

What you say makes sense, but as has been said, "within" has been expressed to have a specific meaning in malifaux.

The word that is missing that would turn the rule to what you mean is "other".

So, the rule would have been worded like "Other models within 3" of the target model..."

Edited November 4, 2012 by Gruesome