Jack Daw and Betrayed

[T3tsuya]

This came up in a game today and like most things relating to Jack Daw, intense rules discussion followed.

Betrayed says "When determining this model's final total in a Resist duel, reduce the value of any Mask Cards in the final total to 0"

I tried to cast Hangman's Knot, cheated my total up with a mask so I could get the double mask trigger for Heart Stopper.

My opponent said that doesn't work because the total is now 0, as it is my total he's using in HIS resist duel, and then Betrayed triggers. This was backed up by our local Knows-A-Lot-About-The-Rules guy that my cast flip is part of a resist duel.

I'm saying Jack Daw's total only goes to 0 when he's resisting, as when I cast it it wasn't a resist duel. It was my casting flip. I was under the impression you got a final casting total and then the resist flip was the flip against that number, and this is known as a Casting Flip. Besides that, in the rulebook entry he was citing it said that suits are ignored. He tells me the suit applies as I flip it, makes my flip 0 when casting, and that's still considered part of the resist duel.

I ask this if not only because if a casting flip is considered a resist duel, it is virtually impossible for Jack Daw to ever cast Hangman's knot, much less get it's trigger.

If anyone could clear up what's going on with this one, I'd deeply appreciate it. I probably won't play Jack Daw again because of the upset that comes from rules problems like this, but I'd like to know regardless to help me get the hang of the more intricate rules of Malifaux for similar situations.

Thanks in advance.

[Carse]

Casting flip is not a resist duel, resist duel comes after. You were right, they were wrong.

[T3tsuya]

So the process goes exactly

Casting Flip > Generate Final Casting Total > Declare Trigger > Resist Duel for Opponent against that total sans suits > Resolution

And Betrayed's effect never comes into play because when you are done generating the duel total and declare the trigger, the suits drop, and your opponent goes into the Resist Duel against your total.

Does this seem like I have it outlined right? I want to be able to explain this to my group in a way that doesn't seem like Im just trying to be right, and instead have something that will be informative.

[MrSpiffypants]

Moreover Severed Ties has a cc of 14 and a mask/tome in the cast. Hmm, so with Jack Daw's ca of 6... Mr.Know-it-all theory is that the only way to cast this 0 spell is to use the inherent mask in your ca, making the total 0/mask, and then a Red Joker? Silly.

Edited September 6, 2012 by MrSpiffypants
long day.

[T3tsuya]

What I'm being told on that front is that the casting flip is an Offensive Resist Flip.

Im not entirely convinced an Offensive Resist Flip exists but at the same time I've been dreadfully wrong before and I dont know as much about the rules as I used to, which is why Im asking for help from the masses here, so I can have it straight.

[Korrosion]

What I'm being told on that front is that the casting flip is an Offensive Resist Flip.

Im not entirely convinced an Offensive Resist Flip exists but at the same time I've been dreadfully wrong before and I dont know as much about the rules as I used to, which is why Im asking for help from the masses here, so I can have it straight.

Does not exist. Casts that have a resist are against a target number which happens to be the same as your casting total. The defender has a resist flip, not the caster. Casters have Casting Totals which they generate by adding their stat to a casting flip.

[MrSpiffypants]

The way you've explained it is perfect. If you're still experiencing problems, walk it through with the guy. Take a look at your card and see if his explanation makes sense.

Just glancing at the Heart Stopper trigger: well that will never go off. If every Mask results in a 0, you can't get the requirments and have any casting total.

Hangman's Knot is only cast-able by a 5 cards, a 12 or a Red Joker. That's a 9.25% chance of casting, that's pretty unlikely.

Severed Ties is a Red Joker only. That's a 1.85% chance.

If after explaining all that he still doesn't get it... congratulate him on walking upright and find better friends.

[Ausplosions]

What I'm being told on that front is that the casting flip is an Offensive Resist Flip.

Wow, that is some impressive (and impressively wrong), rules lawyering.

[ravenborne]

As for the exact rules, I would point to page 51, explaining that casting duels are simple duels.

There are only two kinds of duels in Malifaux, Simple and Opposed (p.26). Casting is a simple duel. Resist flips are simple done against a casting total after the total has been set.

I cannot find any reference to an "offensive resist flip" in the book.

In any case, it is pretty clear to me that Jack is not making a resist duel when he casts a spell. In fact, the only time he seems to ever be making a resist duel is against a spell.

Edited September 6, 2012 by ravenborne

[Issalbotproto]

Sorry Tetsuya ignore what I was saying when you were texting me I was mixing things up between remembering his card from my brain as well as other things XD these fine fellows have it correct, it's spelled out as they say on pg. 53

just ignore me o.o ig....r... mm....eee.....e.e.........

[marshimartian]

What I'm being told on that front is that the casting flip is an Offensive Resist Flip.

What!? :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

There is absolutely no such thing as an "offensive" resist duel.

Casting Sequence

1. Declare Spell and Target

2. Casting Duel

a. Caster Flips Starting Casting Total

b. Caster Changes Starting Total or Passes

c. Caster Determines Final Duel Total

d. Caster Declares a Trigger

e. Caster Determines Success

3. Resist Duels (if necessary)

a. Resisting Model Flips Starting Resist Total

b. Resisting Model Changes Starting Total or Passes

c. Resisting Model Determines Final Duel Total

d. Caster Meets Additional Requirements

e. Resisting Model Declares a Trigger

f. Resisting Model Determines Success

4. Apply Spell Effects

As you can see, the Casting Duel is completely separate from the Resist Duel. And in no way is anything like an 'offensive' Resist Duel