Avatar Hamelin, PullMyFinger, and rats with Blight

[Kalkris]

Heya everybody!

So, on PullMyFinger, on his page under "Using Blight Tokens," Avatar Hamelin is said to be able to "heal himself by discarding on Blight Token from each model in range, healing 1 Wd per Token discarded." I also know that his Rats come in with Blight as well. I don't have the Avatar or his stat card, but am I wrong in thinking he can do this with his Rats? Does this make the Rats capable of getting past that really harsh issue with Blight Tokens that impedes their movement/Strikes? I don't quite understand what abilities/triggers/spells I am citing as I don't have the stat card so if someone could direct me to this information or at least answer this question with a bit of a summary?

If I'm right, then yes, I am SO glad that I started out a Hamelin player... Even though he is so difficult to start out with normally. And if I'm right that also cements me getting Avatar Hamelin for more than aesthetic work.

Thanks all!

~Kalkris

[Loen-Y]

aHamelin does heal himself with blight counters from other models, be they friends or otherwise. he also can summon up to 3 rats per turn by throwing fate cards away.

he does lose bully and his ability to summon stolen however, so aHamelin plays very differently then master Hamelin.

[Kalkris]

Thanks for the reply! I was aware of the lack of bully and Stolen support. I am very pleased that this seems to be an out for the Writhing Mass issue (I *think* that was the issue? Someone please correct me if I'm wrong). Also, the Avatar Hamelin action that removes the blights and heals from them... It was called Bask in the Plague, right? If not, what was it called again? Thanks again!

~Kalkris

[Loen-Y]

yes, you named it correct. also you actually want blight tokens on your rats, if you use the ratcatchers to kill them near enemy models they gain blight tokens themselves. you don't get a cuddle for it, it just plays in your advantage.

[Kalkris]

So then, what happens if you Writhing Mass with the rats with Blights? Do they die, then spread Blights, or move, then die and spread Blights? Do they spread Blights at all?

~Kalkris

[DarcXON]

So then, what happens if you Writhing Mass with the rats with Blights? Do they die, then spread Blights, or move, then die and spread Blights? Do they spread Blights at all?

~Kalkris

See the thing is there is the understanding that since the effect of the rats taking the wounds activates the Blight Token then you can't take the action. Otherwise if you could do the action, it would be an infinite loop that could be easily exploited.

At first it was believed that it didn't count as the rats inflicting the killing wound on themselves, but rather the Blight Token, so it was exploitable. I think it was ruled that this is not so.

[Kalkris]

Isn't the rule with Blight Tokens that if a model takes a Wd, they take an additional Wd per Blight? I'm pretty sure that this is inherent in all models unless otherwise mentioned, but I feel like that rule is more of a general rule about Blights than a rule inherent in all models. That said, I'd like to see where it was ruled that Rats would be the cause and thus could no longer Writhing Mass. I mean, I'd be fine with my rats dying and not moving, as long as they can actually take the action and die at all from it. And besides, it is only infinite if it can't be stopped. A player can cease to Writhing Mass his rats (ceasing to kill them and (presumably) make more), so the loop can break and thus logically must at some point, otherwise it is a ton of stalling. There should be judge action allowed for stalling games in that way (i.e. end of turn, i have 1 rat that i constantly writhe and respawn with, but cannot do more than that with it). Such a penalty would likely be a game loss, if not an end of turn.

That or the rules could be errataed to say the last activation of a turn, any action or ability that would summon a model would instead summon no models. That way triggers are okay, but Voracious Rats or Lure Malifaux Citizen would not be (not that its only there to affect Hammy - I've very limited knowledge of too many other masters but im sure that, for example Ramos would be affected here). Would that rules change be the appropriate action Wyrd should take? I am not the judge of that but it might solve a few problems.

~Kalkris

[DarcXON]

Isn't the rule with Blight Tokens that if a model takes a Wd, they take an additional Wd per Blight? I'm pretty sure that this is inherent in all models unless otherwise mentioned, but I feel like that rule is more of a general rule about Blights than a rule inherent in all models. That said, I'd like to see where it was ruled that Rats would be the cause and thus could no longer Writhing Mass. I mean, I'd be fine with my rats dying and not moving, as long as they can actually take the action and die at all from it. And besides, it is only infinite if it can't be stopped. A player can cease to Writhing Mass his rats (ceasing to kill them and (presumably) make more), so the loop can break and thus logically must at some point, otherwise it is a ton of stalling. There should be judge action allowed for stalling games in that way (i.e. end of turn, i have 1 rat that i constantly writhe and respawn with, but cannot do more than that with it). Such a penalty would likely be a game loss, if not an end of turn.

That or the rules could be errataed to say the last activation of a turn, any action or ability that would summon a model would instead summon no models. That way triggers are okay, but Voracious Rats or Lure Malifaux Citizen would not be (not that its only there to affect Hammy - I've very limited knowledge of too many other masters but im sure that, for example Ramos would be affected here). Would that rules change be the appropriate action Wyrd should take? I am not the judge of that but it might solve a few problems.

~Kalkris

Any Ability that can go on until a player decides (not that you ran out of resources) can be considered an infinite loop. Since it can be exploited very negatively by giving any amount of Blight Tokens and then next turn violently destroy everyone in the area.

It may only be me but your post is very confusing an ambiguous....

[Kalkris]

My post seems ambiguous and confusing most likely because i am not as versed in this game as other people on this forum so excuse me for that.

For that reason, I suppose that definition of a loop which you provided can be true for this game. I came to this game from playing a ton of Magic: the Gathering, so I know a thing or two about what is considered an inf. loop there, but i guess the criteria is different here. Going infinite in Magic entails either drawing the game as a result of all players being unable to break the loop, or the acting player breaking the loop after setting a value for whatever "infinite" is (for example: if i was somehow going to make my creature card infinitely strong and could break the loop, id have to denote the final "power" of the card before doing much else with it). Generally in magic you dont really have to play out the motions due to there not being a real precision to placement of cards or anything, so any infinite loops, once made, are just done (and then broken, denoting a value), or end the game in a draw.

With Malifaux, there is a degree of precision in physical, tangible parts of the game so therefore motions have to be made and if someone can make an infinite loop with those tangible components (ex: killing, respawning, movement, and even flipping for something), it will effectively stall out the game. I am saying that there should be some kind of rule (at least for cases like this) that says something to the effect of "during the final Activation of a given turn, if a model would be summoned as resolution of a spell, ability, or action, instead no models are summoned. If there are other effects from that spell, ability, or action, they still happen."

In a more General sense, it might be good to put "in a competitive-level game, if the judge is called and it seems to him that a player is staling with an infinite loop, he may award that player a game/match loss." I surmise it would help with a lot of issues, possibly Cuddling masters that are inherently OP for these scenarios alone. Of course, it's not my place to instill such a rule.

~Kalkris

[DarcXON]

I suppose that definition of a loop which you provided can be true for this game. I came to this game from playing a ton of Magic: the Gathering, so I know a thing or two about what is considered an inf. loop there, but i guess the criteria is different here. Going infinite in Magic entails either drawing the game as a result of all players being unable to break the loop, or the acting player breaking the loop after setting a value for whatever "infinite" is (for example: if i was somehow going to make my creature card infinitely strong and could break the loop, id have to denote the final "power" of the card before doing much else with it). Generally in magic you dont really have to play out the motions due to there not being a real precision to placement of cards or anything, so any infinite loops, once made, are just done (and then broken, denoting a value), or end the game in a draw.

~Kalkris

I play the tournament scene in magic, and an infinite loop there is the same here. In fact if you accept this game as mostly a card game you will start doing better. I guarantee it.

[Kalkris]

an infinite loop there is clearly NOT the same as here if malifaux's loops are as you say they are.

You say that in both games (as in post #10 you claim they are the same type of scenario), loops are always something that can be stopped (post #8 which is Malifaux's definition according to you). I disagree.

In magic, there are loops that cannot end, and thus draw the game because nobody can respond to them. Sure, there is the other kind of loop in both games, but infinite loops are wayyyyy different between the games, especially considering the degree of importance physical/tangible attributes of the game matters in Malifaux as opposed to Magic. It is also because of those attributes (such as distance and measuring, the cards you draw directly affecting how you'll perform with your assets already on the field, the sheer amount of respawns [at least for Hamelin's crew], etc.) that I don't think saying "Malifaux is much like a card game" (pphr.) is valid enough.

Sorry to derail my own thread. I felt it needed saying though. Anyway, could you cite the ruling where it said that if Rats will kill themselves with Writhing Mass, they can't Writhing Mass? Because I'm pretty sure I can take a (N) act and have my model die as a result, even if it isn't by way of Blights.

~Kalkris

[DarcXON]

Nope, tried to help and you are being too unreasonable. Hopefully there is a kind soul out there that can deal with you. Good luck on your games!

[Kalkris]

Nope, tried to help and you are being too unreasonable. Hopefully there is a kind soul out there that can deal with you. Good luck on your games!

I don't see any of what I was saying as "unreasonable". What I see is that you did not try to help me out when you should have backed up your claim. What you *did* do, however, was assert your condescension and criticisms upon me and my thread, instead of maybe actually try to read what i was saying and clear up why it was not so, or tell me why it *couldn't be* so, or maybe actually ask for clarification. And now you call ME unreasonable! You sir are most likely a troll. And before you accuse me of trolling note that I just came to you all for help and nobody came to answer with definitive rulings or anything to that effect.

Well, I mean, Loen-Y did come to help, and was being helpful, which I appreciated, but then you came in with your arrogant, "holier-than-thou" attitude and that makes me sick. I'd've been much better off waiting for another reply, I am sure.

So... I am reading your present latest post as "Nope, tried to assert knowledge-based authoritative dogma and you aren't amusing me enough. Hopefully there is someone who can knock me down a peg. Good luck to that saint!".

Good luck to that saint, indeed.

~Kalkris

EDIT: A final word, regarding internet forums in general: they exist for a variety of purposes. This one in particular is for advice and inquiring minds. I wanted advice, I got a bit and then I got some posts with much less than that. Learn your place.

[TranquilitiesEnd]

From the recent FAQ on the Malifaux Website

Can a model kill or sacrifice itself?

Yes. Unless the Talent/Spell causes a fixed number of wounds and those wounds would drop the model to 0 Wounds.

The rats with blight counters cannot use Writhing Mass because it would cause a fixed number of wounds to kill itself.

(Also, gameplay-wise, it would be very overpowered if they could, because after moving a Rat-Catcher forward into 6inch range of any number of opponents models, you could use, lets say, 50 Writhing Mass's from a single rat, moving him around the 6inch aura of the Rat-Catcher (movement occurring from summoning in B2B contact with dying rat, rather than in its exact space) applying an overload of blight counters to all models in range, which would all be one-shot able from any Rat-Catcher, Wretch, Stolen, or Nix via Bleeding Disease.)

That being said, you can pretty much do thing anyway without the excessive Writhing Mass's, just by moving a Rat-Catcher forward, using Mouldy Cheese to move rats, and killing them with Slaughter Rats. this will still apply a Blight Token for ever Rat killed, and can be duplicated if the rats form into a new Rat-Catcher and Slaughter again. aHamelin is a very strong Avatar, and positioning is very important for his Talents to shine.

[Kalkris]

Ah, so that is how that works. Thank you very much.

Now, because you mention positioning...

Given the three deployment options, what is the best way to deploy a crew of Hamelin, Nix, 1 Rat-Catcher, 1 Wretch, 1 Stolen, and 6 Rats? I assume putting the rats together would be wise, but I'm absolutely curious about how to deploy optimally because I'm so ridiculously new to this game. It's kind of embarassing, even...

Thanks again!

~Kalkris

[TranquilitiesEnd]

Can't help you too much with that, I've never played as Hamelin. I bought him and all the models he can hire, after loving his fluff, and read up on his rules as much as I can, but I'm not going to start playing him until after he gets errata'd. (Don't want to learn him twice, and don't want others to play against him at my LGS while he's so strong.)

By positioning, I meant that keeping the Catchers near the Rats, and making sure to keep their armour up is very important. Also, making sure you activate the right models in the right order is so much more important for Hamelin than other masters as you definitely don't want your rats to move away from their Voracious Aura's, but don't want to activate them to find you cant engage with the enemy that turn without exposing them.

The best way to work it out though would be just to have a bunch of games to get used to the Aura's range and all the interactions.

Practice makes perfect. (Took me ages to learn all the triggers on all my models, its the one thing that only practice can help you remember.)

[Kalkris]

While you say that you haven't bothered really playing with Hamelin and thus can't help all that much, in my opinion what you're saying is already tons of help. I actually only have 2 starters worth of crews: Hamelin and Hoffman (as it stands, too, I'm working on elaborating on the Ham first anyhow), and I haven't played nearly enough. Knowing how to get better in a general sense (by knowing what to look out for when practicing - namely putting talents to memory, remembering my triggers, and figuring out optimal positioning) already puts me at a better position than I was. Thank you!

~Kalkris

[Loen-Y]

i usually start a 35SS game with

- hamelin

- obedient wretch

- nix

- 2 catchers

- 3 stolen

but i will admit i try to play stolen heavy to sacrifice them for understand the stolen + i let one walk off on his/her own (but not too far off) to keep hamelin safe, just in case someone gets lucky and kills all the kiddies *evil grin*. and if they catch up to that plan, at least melee crews have to send a model away as well, thus less heat on hamelin for a while.

[Kalkris]

In your build, Loen-Y, how many Stolen do you keep on reserve for Lure Malifaux Citizen (since that seems inevitable for your strategy)? As far as I understand, in competitive games, you only have the ability to summon up to whatever you have on reserve...

As for the Crew I'm working on using...

for a 35ss Scrap:

Hamelin (4 Cache)

aHamelin (2ss)

Obedient Wretch (2ss [i think? - I don't have the model just yet])

Nix (7ss)

Rat-Catcher (5ss)

Stolen (3ss)

6x Malifaux Rat (2ss each = 12ss)

I am aiming to have 6 more Rats, 2 Stolen, and a second Rat-Catcher on reserve. Is that adequate? PMF says another 3 Stolen might be optimal but is it necessary? My budget might not say yes to that.

~Josh

Edited September 3, 2012 by Kalkris

[TranquilitiesEnd]

You can start play with 3 stolen, and after sacrificing one for a spell, (making a free rat) just resummon it. That way you don't really need to have many of the same model. Sotlen come in blisters of three, so three's good. I have 6 myself, just because of the Slaughter Strategy plan, where I'll want to start with 6 in play.

Also, if you not in a tournament you can proxy the stolen with a ronin or really any other human looking model you have.

[Loen-Y]

i have played some games where there were 5 stolen on the table at a time, so i have 6. i also have 15 rats but i never got to that stage yet, then again never played against gremlins yet either so ... the max rats i did use were 9 at once.

btw if you ever play against a lilith crew you'll have an easy win (except for slaughter). with only 3 rats in hamelins aura i had an infinite loop thing going until black blood shaman, lilith and a black blood (2) enhanced waldgeist were all dead. just work out the combo of writhing mass and the black blood feedback. these are my 2 Script from my last battle.

[Kalkris]

Well, I havent played against lilith yet but how exactly does this lilith-killer combo work? My pal has a Lilith crew and im just itching to play it and dominate, but only once I understand it better.

~Kalkris

[Adran]

Basically attacking models with black blood will hit them, and the black blood will hurt your rats. And when they die, you get new rats. Who can attack.

You might need to get lucky to hit Lileth, but if you're putting 15 attacks a turn into it, you'll get lucky eventually.

[Loen-Y]

and Nix close by never hurts ... you

the combo works like this: writhing mass a rat to put a wound on him, then do impetious and attack black blood model, which if you hurt it will give you a wound, thus the rat dies and you get a new rat. then rinse and repeat 'til satisfied or nothing is left.

[Kalkris]

And so, because the act of attacking won't wound the Rat (only the hurting of the Black Blood model), I can still do this?!?! SCORE!

Thank you guys ever so much. I really want to see this happen once my crew is set up fully.

~Kalkris