Question after one of my first Malifaux games

[Keltorian]

Saturday my local hobby store had a Malifaux gaming day to teach new players the game. A couple people who knew the rules fairly well walked around and helped out all the new players (about 12 of us). I played 4 games with Pandora and one fairly tricky question came up during those games:

Papa Loco with one Wd charged Pandora and failed the Wp duel for Expose Fears. When this happened both Emotional Trauma and Fading Memory triggered. My question is do I get to push 4" before Papa Loco explodes from the Emotional Trauma damage?

[Serigala]

I believe that when simultaneous triggers like this happen, then the acting player can choose the order that they are resolved.

Fuller discussion in this thread...

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?20176-Order-of-resolution-of-triggers-%28eg-Ronin-Run-Through-vs-BOOM!%29&highlight=ronin

[Keltorian]

In the situation in the thread you linked the push happens after the damage (the ability explicitly states so). In my case I have 2 abilities that each should trigger simultaneously. One of them causing Papa Loco to blow up and the other pushing me 4". I think I should get to move since the damage and push are immediate effects. Once they resolve then Papa Loco should blow up.

Can anyone answer this?

[sharpobjects]

1. Expose Fears: Enemy models attempting to target this model for any reason must first win a WP to WP Duel or the action immediately ends.

2. Fading Memory: Whenever this model wins a Wp Duel, Push this model 4 inches in any direction.

3. Emotional Trauma: When an enemy model loses a WP Duel while within 12" inches of this model, it suffers 1 wound.

Papa Loco declares a charge targeting Pandora. #1 Expose Fears occurs. This is an Opposed Duel using Wp to Wp for the stat. Step number 5 for resolving an Opposed Duel is Determine Success.

Pandora wins the Opposed Duel and the charge action declared by Papa Loco immediately ends and #2 Fading Memory occurs pushing Pandora 4 inches away.

Then #3 Emotional Trauma kicks in and delivers the 1 wound killing Papa Loco and causing him to explode.

Neither of these are triggers. These are all Pandora's abilities. The acting model does not get to choose the order of Pandora's abilities when referring to when #2 and #3 occur.

[Veskit]

Pandora wins the Opposed Duel and the charge action declared by Papa Loco immediately ends and #2 Fading Memory occurs pushing Pandora 4 inches away.

Then #3 Emotional Trauma kicks in and delivers the 1 wound killing Papa Loco and causing him to explode.

Neither of these are triggers. These are all Pandora's abilities. The acting model does not get to choose the order of Pandora's abilities when referring to when #2 and #3 occur.

Hang on, both happen at the end of a duel, so why are they not simultaneous? You're implying that due to the placement of the abilities on the card that it also determines the order of which they're resolved. I haven't seen anything in the rules that state anything about the order of abilities on the card having any significance. So why doesn't the acting model get to choose the order of things?

I want some page references... more because I want to be able to show my guys exactly how it is that it plays out this way.

[Serigala]

As I said initially. If the 2 actions are truly simultaneous then the trigger on the activating model takes precedence, though I do remember that in certain circumstances, the acting player can choose the order that triggers are applied. In your specific example I think your opponent, as the acting player, would be able to choose the order that Pandora's triggers are applied.

Keltheos response in the thread I highlighted (#40 ) gives the most authoritative breakdown of the order triggers like this are applied.

Edit: My bad. I assumed we were talking about triggers here.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Serigala

[sharpobjects]

As i continue to read and re-read Step #5 Determine Success, I begin to wonder if the acting model losing the Opposed Duel and thereby the defending model wins the Opposed Duel if that sequence would have an effect on if the wound comes before the push.

The acting model loses first and takes a wound, then the defending model wins and pushes away 4 inches. Or is winning and losing a Duel simultaneous?

[stochastic]

This is getting quite interesting

And it should happen quite often with other characters as well. I am looking forward to a decent answer with rules-references.

[The Godlyness]

Winning and losing are simul

[sharpobjects]

Fading Memory, Emotional Trauma, Expose fears and Boom are not triggers. They are abilities.

Talents have 4 sub-categories; Abilities, Actions, triggers and weapons.

The example that Keltheos gives deals with an actual trigger by the Ronin "Next Target" and when that applies in the damage sequence of a strike.

This example here is different. Papa loco is attempting to charge or attemtpting to strike Pandora. He fails the Wp to WP duel of Pandora's ability Expose Fears. His attempt to charge/strike is over. We never make it to the damage sequence of a strike duel. After that we continue to resolve Pandora's other abilities which cause a wound and allows her to push 4 inches.

Either Pandora is allowed to resolve her own abilities in the order she chooses or step 5 of Determining Success during an Opposed Duel tells us the order by stating the acting model loses the duel before the defending model wins. If that is true then Papa Loco takes the wound, his ability Boom goes off and then Pandora pushes.

---------- Post added at 11:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 AM ----------

Hang on, both happen at the end of a duel, so why are they not simultaneous? You're implying that due to the placement of the abilities on the card that it also determines the order of which they're resolved. I haven't seen anything in the rules that state anything about the order of abilities on the card having any significance. So why doesn't the acting model get to choose the order of things?

I want some page references... more because I want to be able to show my guys exactly how it is that it plays out this way.

If you read pandora's card I did not put them in order 1-3 based on their order listed on the card. I put them in the order I think they would be resolved. At least how i felt they would be resolved in that particular post.

[Serigala]

Reading what has been added above, if Loco lost the WP duel to charge Pandora then the Charge action would cease immediately and I don't think he would move at all. Unless Loco was already within 6" of Pandora he would have been better walking towards her and then attacking - ensuring that he moved within blast range.

[The Godlyness]

Just to hijack this for a moment.

aLevi pokes lilth both have one wound left, when levi (or another rider) kills a model make a healing flip.

Now levi damaging lilth with a melee attack triggers black blood.

Would levi get his healing flip even though he dies beforehand due to bb.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Just to hijack this for a moment.

aLevi pokes lilth both have one wound left, when levi (or another rider) kills a model make a healing flip.

Now levi damaging lilth with a melee attack triggers black blood.

Would levi get his healing flip even though he dies beforehand due to bb.

Why not just start a new thread, since this is a totally unrelated question?

[The Godlyness]

No its related to the events that happen in order. And no need another thread for a very similar question.

[Q'iq'el]

Let me point you guys towards the very beginning of Rules Manual, where the timing is being discussed (Page 6).

The essential difference between Triggers and Abilities is that Triggers happen during predefined steps of the Duel. They don't interrupt anything, but rather happen as their time comes (for example, if they introduce new action, the action is resolved only after the Duel ends, while abilities like Slow to Die interrupt the duel and the new action gets resolved before the duel ends.).

Abilities that go off when special conditions are met go off immediately and interrupt the game flow. As such they stop the Duel, get entirely resolved and only then the Duel continues.

And obviously an action being executed during an interruption can be interrupted as well if it causes another ability to meet its conditions.

I'm in a bit of a hurry right now, so I may be missing something, but IMO Emotional Trauma and Fading Memory are both set off by the same event and as such both interrupt the flow at the same moment. Because these are Pandora's Abilities, and she has just interrupted PL's action, Pandora is the acting model. I think the acting model chooses which of the two to resolve first.

If she chooses the Fading Memory, she may find herself out of range to inflict Emotional Trauma's Wd.

If she chooses Emotional Trauma, Papa Loco will interrupt her action with Boom! and she gets hit before she gets to Push.

[Mach_5]

RM Pg 6. Resolve Immediate effects first (not applicable), then effects of the acting player (it's Papa Loco's activation, but he has no effects to resolve), then by activation order of that player's models.

The last part is kinda vague, but I take it to mean that each player takes turns resolving simultaneous effects. Since both abilities in question (the 4" move and the 1Wd to papa loco) are Pandora's abilities I think it's her option which goes first.

---------- Post added at 07:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:34 PM ----------

And from the FAQ

Q. When a model must resolve multiple non-environmental effects that are not controlled by the player at the start of its activation, for example Poison 1 and Regeneration 1, what order are the effects resolved in?

A. The model’s Controller may choose the order in which the effects are resolved.

So not really the exact same situation obviously, but there are two separate effects resolving at the same time and it's the model's controller who chooses.

[stochastic]

So the active player starts first, by ranking his/her abilities, and then the target resolves his/her abilities?

(If they happen simultaneously).

or what?