Speedy Collodi

[011121]

I'm toying with the idea of starting off with a wicked doll I intend to kill in some way just so Collodi can have a scrap counter on hand to replace marionettes with...

Well worth the 2 soul stones given how easy it is to create more WDs with the weaver.

FYI I really don't like the weaver model so I'm planning to use this (I'm sick of proxying with whatever is handy):

Obviously it's a very different take on the concept but I like it a lot more.

[EnternalVoid]

I actually tried Pandora for our league the other day and felt dirty. She definitely needs some tweaking. (I made McMourning slit his own throat with Self Loathing flipping the Red Joker. It was amusing but I felt bad for doing it)

Not quite sure how about this as McMourning heals for what damage he does due to Organ donor. I guess you might be able to do it with the Red Joker if the second flip is a severe but under some of the rulings form Ratty it was said Organ Donor kicks in after the Wounds are tallied and applied. But with how the sequence of events go fo ran attack that would be after applying the wounds thus before checking to see if the model is dead and it is removed. Following that it would imply that of all the masters McMourning might actually be immune to Self Loathing as he will heal himself for any damage Pandora inflicts *save for the one point from losing a Wp duel near her*.

Most times, it is a pair of Flayed Ones someone is selling anyway though since they came in blisters of two so I'll probably pin and play with both setups before gluing something in place. Top claws HAVE to be replaced though. >.<

My friend was odd, rather then get different hands he removed two of Collodi's arms so that he only had one pair of hands. Apparently the look of the coat with 4 arms bothered him.

And basically, it appears to be a specific AP. So, can you combine it with even a general? That is the whole question. I wish they would make a ruling on it. (I may be a bit biased but I am in the camp of it being usable because of it mentioning Channel, implying it can be combined. But we shall see)

Ya still no ruling on this, was kind of hoping to see one before Gencon but it might have been put on the back burner till afterwards just because of Gencon. With new masters and such they might be seeing what comes out of the water with this and determining which way they want to rule it. It is likely they intended it to be combined, likely with General Ap rather than specific AP but want to see what sort of balance issues exist before making a clear ruling. Afterall there are advantages to both way, some more then others, but for different masters. They likely want to make sure they got it all worked out to prevent some combo that would result them having to reverse it later.

Anyhow to Collodi; I have been trying to help a friend of mine with Collodi for a long time as he almost plays him exclusively at the moment. Sadly only so much of what I say has set in. He also has been rarely winning with him.

Some things for Collodi players to consider, ponder, and possible intergrate into their own ideas and methods.

-Collodi is a Doll, which means he can fill himself with Stones. Passing attacks off to the Marionette is a double edged ability, sure it might saves Collodi but it might also stop him from being able to kill the enemy in turn and thus merely be picked off the following turn. As Collodi will be using almost all his AP himself and not moving by his own power if he casts Filled With Stones on himself he suddenly becomes a far more enduring figure thanks to armor and Hard to Kill. At which point you might not need to pass hits to marionettes and thus save them for retaliation. A soulstone or two for damage reduction or defense flips to help this and Collodi can survive quite the beating. Also if you have a Wicked Doll near by for healing it can only make his life go that much longer.

Also with this you don't have to fill a Marionette and can leave their movement intacted. I have messed with my friend before by killing the Marionettes he did not fill with stones so that the stone one and any others can't pull Collodi as far.

-Just cause Collodi can make the Dolls around him Fast does not mean it is always a good idea. Namely first turn. As already pointed out Collodi can get around just fine with his Marionettes and as pointed out they don't need fast to move him around at max speed and that Fast is more for their attacks rather than movement most of the time. My friend loves grouping them all up first turn and hitting all of them, but he rarely engages first turn so it is often wasted on the Marionette and wicked dolls. For the Effigies and Stitched it can help them get up into the mid field first turn but at the same time this is all he is getting for it many times. Consider these two options;

1. You can have Collodi fill himself with stones first turn for survivability.

2. You can activate the some of the Marionette before Collodi. This has several benefits such as allows you a better chance of out activating your opponent on the first turn and seeing what he is up to. Also when Collodi does activate he can generate his fast and effect those Marionettes in range with it for next turn, thus allowing him other options besides just making them fast with two AP.

-Don't forget that your Wicked Dolls can teleport to Collodi for a (0) action. He keeps having them run forward first turn rather than just teleport to Collodi and move from there. Think of doing something that involves interaction, such as Reclaim Malifaux, and doing this; activate Collodi, make marionette and some wicked Dolls fast. The activate a single Marionette and pull Collodi, possible interacting with a target. Then either activate another marionette or a wicked Doll depending on the location so it can go interact with another one, and keep stringing Collodi along so your models can go to him and from there get to another place to interact. Done right and you could tag a large number of things in a single turn while pushing around to avoid the enemy.

-Don't forget your triggers and abilities. Marionettes and Wicked Dolls have little rules that can be easily forgotten. My friend does this alot too. He forgets that Collodi's Dolls love Crows. For Wicked Dolls it is a drop of poison and for the Marionette it is inflicting slow. Slow can make all the difference when messing with the enemy's ability to retaliate if you can get it inflicted and poison is extra damage that might drop them as soon as they activate.

Another ability to not forget is Wicked Intentions on the Wicked Dolls. A Df 14 duel is not the easiest thing as most models have 4-5 Df. More so if the marionettes have already gone you might have drained your opponent already of a chunk of his hand. Making a model do nothing but Walk and Pass is great, as they can not even interact with a target. Another one on the Wicked Dolls is Malice, as if you have one starting with in 3" of an important model it can do a reasonable amount of damage to a nearly unhittable model and give them slow which will carry till their next activation, whether it be this turn or the next. The fact that it is not resistable is great as even hard to hit models will not get around it. Even Spirits will be hurt by it as it is 2 Wds rather than Dg so it does not get cut in half. Plus Stichwork is great for Collodi as a Wicked Doll can move twice, (0) action for it, and thus have 13" range on a heal.

For marionette the hard to wound and tell no lies are often forgotten. IF you are not retracting to get into range consider Tell No Lies, which attack you use it on though can be very important. Sure you will not be able to cheat but it means they can't either or even Use Soulstones for that attack, which means from the beginning of the attack till the end of it as it does not say the attack flip. Not only can they not use Soulstones to add to their defense but they can't use Soulstones to reduce damage. So while the first Marionette might use it on its first attack, thus keeping them from using that nice hand of cards yet, the last marionettes might want to use it to prevent them from trying to reduce damage if they are low on wounds. Because of this sometimes you might want to consider charging with your Marionettes rather than just retracting to Collodi and using Furry. Sure it is less attacks but if you use it properly you can have your opponent sweating bullets as his hand nor Soulstones might not be able to help him on a key flip.

Something else to consider, I would want to check it in the Rules forum but the Tell No Lies might even prevent a model from using a soulstone during its Slow to Die action to heal. Likely going to throw that one up on the Rule Forums to see what comes out of it, as the attack is technically not over till all the steps are resolved.

And God this ended up being a long post but I really do like Collodi *I am a big Zoraida fan* so I have given him a lot of thought..

[Alviaran]

Not quite sure how about this as McMourning heals for what damage he does due to Organ donor. I guess you might be able to do it with the Red Joker if the second flip is a severe but under some of the rulings form Ratty it was said Organ Donor kicks in after the Wounds are tallied and applied. But with how the sequence of events go fo ran attack that would be after applying the wounds thus before checking to see if the model is dead and it is removed. Following that it would imply that of all the masters McMourning might actually be immune to Self Loathing as he will heal himself for any damage Pandora inflicts *save for the one point from losing a Wp duel near her*.

Self Loathing isn't an attack though. It is just a damage flip. So McMourning will still die to just fine.

My friend was odd, rather then get different hands he removed two of Collodi's arms so that he only had one pair of hands. Apparently the look of the coat with 4 arms bothered him.

Personal preference I guess. I love the four arms.

Ya still no ruling on this, was kind of hoping to see one before Gencon but it might have been put on the back burner till afterwards just because of Gencon. With new masters and such they might be seeing what comes out of the water with this and determining which way they want to rule it. It is likely they intended it to be combined, likely with General Ap rather than specific AP but want to see what sort of balance issues exist before making a clear ruling. Afterall there are advantages to both way, some more then others, but for different masters. They likely want to make sure they got it all worked out to prevent some combo that would result them having to reverse it later.

Yeah, still feels like a really long time to have put it off. I understand why, it's just...frustrating. I'm still taking him a TON though. I'm new to Neverborn and I'm crutching the hell out of Arcane already.

As to the Collodi stuff...

-A Filled with Stones Marionette does not reduce Collodi's movement actually on his full bit. They can never go beyond 8" from him anyway so with a Wk4 they Retract to him, Wk once and then Pull Strings to get to the full 8". It's just more of a straight shot which slows them down only with terrain I suppose.

-He is a doll but I had never thought to Fill him though. Good point. I'll remember that. Not like he ever needs to walk anywhere.

-My Wickeds were being very dangerous in my game. Once I outactivated him, I'd have Collodi get moved up close to what I wanted dead (after giving Fast and Melee Expert to a few Marionettes) then use Hag's Toys to get the Wicked in close and then Retracted Marionettes into base to base with the Wicked. The flurry of attacks just burned through my deck at an absurd rate too. That many paired attacks makes the deck go quick.

-I'm used to activating things senselessly to eat up activations until my big ones go since I also play Kirai (guess how many Seishin activate before Kirai!). I like high model count crews. It certainly has an advantage there.

[EnternalVoid]

Self Loathing isn't an attack though. It is just a damage flip. So McMourning will still die to just fine.

Quick glance and you are correct. It does not help that I am not playing Pandora till I get the model I want to use.

-A Filled with Stones Marionette does not reduce Collodi's movement actually on his full bit. They can never go beyond 8" from him anyway so with a Wk4 they Retract to him, Wk once and then Pull Strings to get to the full 8". It's just more of a straight shot which slows them down only with terrain I suppose.

Again you are correct, I almost forgot it was because I was luring him around difficult terrain as my models had scout one time and the other times involved chasing after a model that could go around corners and use terrain movement.

-My Wickeds were being very dangerous in my game. Once I outactivated him, I'd have Collodi get moved up close to what I wanted dead (after giving Fast and Melee Expert to a few Marionettes) then use Hag's Toys to get the Wicked in close and then Retracted Marionettes into base to base with the Wicked. The flurry of attacks just burned through my deck at an absurd rate too. That many paired attacks makes the deck go quick.

See his problem is he only uses the stuff to attack in a furry of attacks between wicked dolls and marionettes. Worse he often will pick the wrong target, as you should not be trying this against Lilith unless you have burned her hand and her soulstones already. He forgets all about their other ability as he generally does nothing but attack.

[Alviaran]

Quick glance and you are correct. It does not help that I am not playing Pandora till I get the model I want to use.

Yeah, I've seen him play McMourning before so when I went for it, I made sure to check Self Loathing first. It's only because it is so fresh in my mind that I remember that particular.

Again you are correct, I almost forgot it was because I was luring him around difficult terrain as my models had scout one time and the other times involved chasing after a model that could go around corners and use terrain movement.

Yeah, after my game I was looking over Filled With Stones and realized I need to use that more.

See his problem is he only uses the stuff to attack in a furry of attacks between wicked dolls and marionettes. Worse he often will pick the wrong target, as you should not be trying this against Lilith unless you have burned her hand and her soulstones already. He forgets all about their other ability as he generally does nothing but attack.

Ugh. Lilith is like THE worst target for them though because of her defensive trigger. Actually, Nephilim in general are a bad crew to face off with Collodi. Black Blood is going to make things miserable for the dolls in my experience. It's the attrition war they are going to lose.

Actually, I'm not sure what I would take against another Neverborn player in a tournament.

[EnternalVoid]

Ugh. Lilith is like THE worst target for them though because of her defensive trigger. Actually, Nephilim in general are a bad crew to face off with Collodi. Black Blood is going to make things miserable for the dolls in my experience. It's the attrition war they are going to lose.

Nah, black blood does nothing to the dolls, "All Non-Neverborn Models suffer 1 Wd..." Meaning black blood does nothing against another neverborn player. So black blood is not going to affect Collodi's group, I thought of that too.

As for Neverborn against Neverborn I lean towards Zoraida, though she is also my favorate Neverborn master. She is flexible which helps alot and she is not an easy target for several of the Neverborn tricks. Stitched are not taking her down easy, Proper Manners and some distance will keep Lilith from having a sure shot against her, Wp will make it harder for Pandora, and Proper Manners means that Chompy Bits has a rough challenge due to his Cb and her Df making it a fair fight in that regard.

At which point you just take models that fulfill objectives and are good Obey targets for yourself.

Lilith would likely be option two as she is pretty powerful and if she gets going can handle most minions.

[Alviaran]

Ah, forgot it specified Neverborn rather than Nephilim.

Regardless, Disappear is an awful trigger to something that is relying on connecting repeatedly.

Fair enough on Zoraida. I am loving her right now so I'm kind of on a Zoraida love affair right now. Too bad I won't be playing Neverborn at Gencon next week (not painted. Sigh. Too busy trying to get my Hardcore list done for Warmachine since I'm playing in that Friday...and then judging a WM tourney that night into the morning. I'm dumb like that)

[011121]

Ugh. Lilith is like THE worst target for them though because of her defensive trigger. Actually, Nephilim in general are a bad crew to face off with Collodi. Black Blood is going to make things miserable for the dolls in my experience. It's the attrition war they are going to lose.

Doesn't black blood only affect living? I can't remember for sure but I thought so. On Edit- never mind it was non-Neverborn not living. But yeah people with reprisal attacks are bad for collodi (Lady Justice leaps to mind), or at least his typical operation, it's fine if you vary things up and use WP buffed stitches.

Actually, I'm not sure what I would take against another Neverborn player in a tournament.

Zoraida. They're all just puppets to her.

Edited August 10, 2012 by 011121

[Setoth]

Doesn't black blood only affect living? I can't remember for sure but I thought so. But yeah people with reprisal attacks are bad for collodi (Lady Justice leaps to mind), or at least his typical operation, it's fine if you vary things up and use WP buffed stitches.

Zoraida. They're all just puppets to her.

Huh, just a thought, but if Collidi is not taken as a Master then you could hypothetically Voodoo Doll him with Zoraida and force-cast Long-Strings to hamper his mobility, couldn't you?

[Alviaran]

Huh, just a thought, but if Collidi is not taken as a Master then you could hypothetically Voodoo Doll him with Zoraida and force-cast Long-Strings to hamper his mobility, couldn't you?

Theoretically, yeah. Though on the same token, he could have someone kill it and then spend his (2) for the turn to rebuild it.

Also, this is basically the Zoraida mirror I think. Oh man. That would be painful. OBEY WARS!

[Setoth]

Theoretically, yeah. Though on the same token, he could have someone kill it and then spend his (2) for the turn to rebuild it.

Also, this is basically the Zoraida mirror I think. Oh man. That would be painful. OBEY WARS!

Still not bad for one spell taking up two models' activations, plus the dead Marionette having slow post-summon without having to flip a resisted duel (besides the Obey).

[011121]

Zoraida roxxors everyone's soxxors.

Okay, I feel dirty.

[Alviaran]

If they have a model that couldn't get to you anyway, killing the Marionette isn't too bad. And all you stopped him doing was probably Fill With Stones unless he was already fairly close and ready to engage.

The question becomes whether it is better to Obey something else to just kill the Marionette (and put Poison on something that might die a lot sooner, like a Hans).

It might be doable, but I think it is likely a less beneficial use of Obey and the Conduit.

[Boscotopia]

Out of curiosity how would the colodi box plus all effigies fare in general?

They are amazing. I do not have the hodgepodge, but the rest are just fanatstic.

[EnternalVoid]

Huh, just a thought, but if Collidi is not taken as a Master then you could hypothetically Voodoo Doll him with Zoraida and force-cast Long-Strings to hamper his mobility, couldn't you?

While you can Voodoo Doll him you can't force him to cast long strings on them as while he is under Obey is he friendly to you and not the Marionettes. You are better just connecting to Collodi so he gets the poison 2 and have him kill one of his Marionettes if they are in range. That or target something more destructive.

[M_Ruckuss]

Beguiling Litany. It's a 0 that can cause Slow if their WP is lower. Since it isn't a duel, Immune to Influence and such don't stop it (I almost Slowed my own Teddy last night). I haven't really used it much. I honestly use Rapid Acceleration more than I thought I might.

Turning him into a 9" charge really throws people off. Especially since if he got Fast and Melee Expert, he can charge something a bit farther away, hit it, push back towards his crew to something else, hit it and then push into a better position to block or get to safety (yes, it is only two of his three attacks, but I have found that is really useful to have an extra in there if you flip poorly. If all goes perfectly well, then he charges, pushes, melee experts, pushes and then walks 5" to close it all out. A little Effigy slingshot)

Beguiling is a really nice idea if you get alpha struck or they fail to kill him (Df6 and Obj1 make him REALLY hard to kill. I wanna try Filling him with Stones though. Still has a Cg8 then while being really REALLY hard to kill, letting him stick around causing that Litany problem a lot)

The one bit I am disappointed about him is that Disguised Fate requires a 10 of something to cast. It is a useful ability, but I don't think it is THAT good. I really like the idea of it, but I just don't use it. He's usually better off walking and Obfuscating instead, burning a good card on Obfuscate instead. And if there isn't much ranged on the other side, I'd rather just double walk into position to threaten.

Thanks. I'll keep that in mind. I'm trying (half heartedly) on Bartertown to get just some claws or some cheap used ones. I can get a pair on eBay for around $12 USD shipped as I recall.

I enjoy Lilith but the one that drew me to the faction was Nightmare Teddy and Chompy. I love the entire concept of the Dreamer so I had to play him. I'm glad he's gotten a few cuddles actually. Now I want Pandora to get some adjustments so I can play her too. I love the idea of playing a different WP oriented game, but the way she does it is just so nasty I cannot do it in good conscience. I will probably play her for tournaments and nothing else because she just isn't fun otherwise. And if I can get good enough with my other masters to get the job done with them instead, Pandora will likely stay in the case.

aZoraida on the other hand...

Definitely need to give that a go. How do you feel about bringing in aZoraida into that? The early turns, it would seem I can afford to lose initiative as the doll factory gets rolling. And then I can turn things on their head with her abilities.

I just played her and fell in love. It's a little hard.

I think I'll need to get some more Wicked Dolls before I really give that a go. How many do you generally get out?

Hmmm.....mysterious sounds interesting-will give him a go. A zoraidan works really well in the list-I normally drop a marionette. If a nothing I found it to be slightly too good in many instances. Because you are summoning so many dolls you can afford to do it. Personally I love her avatar but it became an auto include. I've enjoyed going back to the simpler Zoraida. I get less hate and actually prefer the way she plays. I love a Zoraida and use her when appropriate (again the arc ef makes her outstanding!)

I know, panda needs a cuddle. Depending on cards and how I use Zoraida between 4-6 with a turn 5-6 teddy. This in 3 straight games.