Targeting question regarding Expensive Gift and Magician's Duel

[TheProfessor]

We had some minor confusion yesterday regarding targeting restriction, if any.

Expensive Gift reads: Target model with Use Soulstone discards one Soulstone. Gain one Soulstone

Magician's Duel reads: Targets with Use Soulstone receive -2 Ca resisting this spell. If the target is killed by Spell, gain one Soulstone.

The question is: Can these spells target any model, regardless of whether that target has the Use Soulstone ability?

If they can, does Expensive Gift generate a Soulstone regardless of whether the target had the Use Soulstone ability? It is a different sentence with no "if" or "then" attached to it...

??

Thanks in advance.

[egoon]

I believe that Expensive gift can't target models without Use Soulstone.

Magician's Duel should be able to target anyone. On Soulstoners get -2Ca. Any model that dies from this would give you a Soulstone.

[xeth1313]

As I understand it Expensive gift can only target models with use soul stone. "Target model with Use Soulstone." Magicians duel can target models with or without, the "Model with Use Soulstone receive -2" implies that models without Use Soulstone resist as usual.

[TheProfessor]

Thanks folks. That was our instictual response, but the language is so similar between the two that we couldn't justify a different interpretation on the two:

"Target model with Use Soulstone discards 1 soulstone"

"Targets with Use Soulstone receive -2 Ca..."

Both say something like "Target with Use Soulstone do this..."

Really the only difference is "Target Model" vs. "Targets". So I'm trying to figure out how if there is some keyword or something here to make it clear?

[Dracomax]

As I recall, Magician's duel has several sentences. the statement about use soulstone comes after a full period end of sentence, making it a separate, yet subordinate clause.

This is important because in Malifaux, order of printing reflects order of effect. What that means is that because the relevant bit with use soulstone occurs after the description of the other effects, then those effects apply independently of whether the -2 ca is triggered by an enemy with use soulstone. I'd be more specific, but I don't have the card in front of me.

[TheProfessor]

I copied the entire text (except the damage and CC, etc.) in my first post. Both spells have the target "<model/targets> with use soulstone..." in the first sentence of the spell.

[Dracomax]

Okay. I'm not sure where I was getting that then. But I'd read it as "Target model" refers to the act of targeting-i.e. it modifies who you can target. Targets refers to models already targeted.

{edit} To explain my read: Both of the parts in question are restrictions on effects. I.e they refer to which models have the effect. since the only effect of expensive gift is the one restricted to the specified models, you can't get any results off a target other than one with use soulstone. you could target it that way, but it wouldn't do anything other than waste an AP.

Magicians duel deals damage as well, so could be used against anyone. As part of the spell, models with use soulstone gain -2CA.

-edited to avoid doublepost{/edit}

Edited August 6, 2012 by Dracomax

[TheProfessor]

since the only effect of expensive gift is the one restricted to the specified models, you can't get any results off a target other than one with use soulstone. you could target it that way, but it wouldn't do anything other than waste an AP.

Magicians duel deals damage as well, so could be used against anyone. As part of the spell, models with use soulstone gain -2CA.

-edited to avoid doublepost{/edit}

Hmm. So with Expensive Gift, as the second part is an independent sentence ("Gain one Soulstone.") would that part go off, or is it something like "If you did make a target with Use Soulstone lose a Soulstone, then you can gain one Soulstone"?

And related, with Magician's Duel, if the target did not Use Soulstone would you still be able to do the "If the target is killed by this spell gain one Soulstone"?

I guess it is the same question posed twice - does the second part rely on the first part?

Edited August 6, 2012 by TheProfessor

[Dracomax]

I want to say it is different, but I'm not sure that it is with RAW.

I beleive that when going through effects of an ability or spell, if one part doesn't hit, then nothing following it hits either(please correct me if I'm wrong).

The only arguments I can make otherwise are this:

Magicians duel specifies that the "if the target is killed..." which could apply either to the previous sentence(use soulstone models) or (mote generally)to the target of the spell, whereas Expensive gift only says gain soulstone, without any other conditions.

The only other point I can make is fluff--Expensive gift clearly is meant to be that the target gives you their stone, whereas magicians duel is supposed to be turning your opponent into a soulstone.

[The Godlyness]

So my real question out this come to let's say my performer targets .....a rat. Spell goes off (ie I met the CC Target was in range. Now the rat fails to resist. Apply effects of spell. Does Target model have use soul stone. No therefore cant discard one. But the next part just says gain one soulstone. So the spell was successful. Even though the model does not have uses Ss.

So free stones? Seems useful but i for one do not believe that is intent.

So cast it on my maniquin I get free stones. Seems obnoxious.

[TheProfessor]

I completely agree. And the "intent" of a spell called Expensive Gift would suggest that the target model is giving up one of their stones. So it seems reasonable that the target must have the Use Soulstone ability.

But that makes me wonder if Magician's Duel is only allowed to be cast against another Magician (model with Use Soulstones)...

And I think the official answer is going to be that they have different targeting rules, but I'm not sure why from the rules.

[Q'iq'el]

Hmm. So with Expensive Gift, as the second part is an independent sentence ("Gain one Soulstone.") would that part go off, or is it something like "If you did make a target with Use Soulstone lose a Soulstone, then you can gain one Soulstone"?

I'm not 100% sure it still holds, but in the past we've been told that if one effect of the spell fails, all of them fail.

So if a model has no Use Soulstone and can't discard a Soulstone because of that, you cannot also gain one.

IMHO there are two differences between these rules, one obscure and one superficial.

Superficial difference is in singular/plural. The plural form suggest we speak in general about targets (Magician's Duel) while the singular suggests it is an effect on the actual Target (hence "target model"). This may be just me though.

The obscure side relates to how use soulstone works in Malifaux. Even if you are told to discard a Soulstone, you cannot do it unless the model has special permission or use soulstone ability. Because of that if you target someone with Expensive gift, and he has no use soulstone ability, he cannot discard a Soulstone. First effect of the spell fails, so the second fails automatically too and the spell has no effect at all. The spell will also fail if the opponent has no Soulstones left.

With Magician's Duel however you are told in more general terms, that the targets with use soulstone are to receive -2CA. There is no way for that penalty to fail whether the target has use soulstone or not. If it has, nothing in the game (AFAIK) can prevent the debuff. If it doesn't have the rule, the sentence doesn't apply to it, rather than fail (because it refers in general to Targets with use soulstone rather than to Target model).

It's a bit convoluted, but I hope this explanation works for you.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Q'iq'el