Attacks and Defense flips

[ravenborne]

Alright, so I am explaining and clarifying rules for a group of new players and I think I understand this, but before I go into this convoluted explanation with new people I want to make sure I have it right.

Attack Flips and Defense Flips are specifically defined in the combat section, and so apply to combat, not casting spells, right?

Which also means that even though on p.18 there are a list of things defined as attacks, flipping for all of these things in the list doesn't generate an Attack Flip, because not all those are combat?

And even if a spell targets the Df stat, when the target flips it isnt making a Defense Flip because its a spell, its actually making a Resist Flip?

Molly is a good example of a model where this is highly relevant. Terrible Secret gives negative flips on Attack Flips and Defense Flips, but these wouldn't apply if a spell with Rst: Df targeted the affected model, nor would it affect all Attacks made by the model, just Attack Flips (combat).

Or am I completely off here?

Edited July 20, 2012 by ravenborne
Corrected my mistype

[Ratty]

Alright, so I am explaining and clarifying rules for a group of new players and I think I understand this, but before I go into this convoluted explanation with new people I want to make sure I have it right.

Attack Flips and Defense Flips are specifically defined in the combat section, and so apply to combat, not casting spells, right?

Correct, Attack Flips and Defense Flips are only generated by Strikes

Which also means that even though on p.18 there are a list of things defined as attacks, flipping for all of these things in the list doesn't generate an Attack Flip, because not all those are combat?

corrects, there is an attacker and a defender, but only those generated by a Strike from a Weapon count as Attack and Defence Flips

And even if a spell targets the Df stat, when the target flips it isnt making a Defense Flip because its a spell, its actually making a Resist Flip?

Yes spells generate Resist Flips, never Defense Flips. If it uses Df stat it would however be a Df Flip.

Molly is a good example of a model where this is highly relevant. Terrible Secret gives negative flips on Attack Flips and Defense Flips, but these wouldn't apply if a spell with Rst: Df targeted the affected model, nor would would it affect all Attacks made by the model, just Attack Flips (combat).

Or am I completely off here?

I think you mistyped here.. But yes only you would only get the for Terrible Secret if you were attacking with a Weapon, or defending against a weapon.

[Ausplosions]

Do spell with the or as it's range count as attack Flips?

[Ratty]

Do spell with the or as it's range count as attack Flips?

Well if the question is.. "Do spell with the or as it's range count as Attack Flips?"

Then NO they don't Attack Flips are only for Weapon Strikes. An attacker flip can't be simultaneously an Attack Flip and a Casting Flip the two are exclusive.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Ratty

[DeleteAccount]

So since harmless states the model can't be attacked if the WP test fails, does it mean spells and other non strike abilities are AOK?

[Ausplosions]

So since harmless states the model can't be attacked if the WP test fails, does it mean spells and other non strike abilities are AOK?

I think all Attack Flips are attacks, but not all attacks use Attack Flips...

[Fetid Strumpet]

When the FAQ was released I had a good long conversation with Keltheos clarifying this issue, and in particular, how it related to Molly. It's in the early parts of the that Thread if you'd like to look it over. I know it is confusing, but the gist of what Keltheos said was:

When the Rules manual defines an attack (note that attack is not capitalized), as;

Attacks with the Melee Icon or Ranged Icon.

Spells with a Melee or Range Icon in their Rg.

Spells that Require a Resist duel.

Strikes with Melee or ranged Weapons.

Actions that inflict dmg or wd on another model, or require an opposed duel.

all these refer to what an attack is, but an attack does not necessarily use an Attack Flip. It very well could, but doesn't have to.

So the practical up shot of this is that not all attacks are Attack Flips, and attacks which are spells with the melee icon or ranged icon, like Dissection or December's Curse for example, very well may be an attack, but neither use an Attack Flip or Defense Flip even if they target the Df Stat. They use Casting and Resist Flips. Attack Flip and attack are not equivalent terms.

A little complex I know. Here's the thread where I was asking the exact same question from Keltheos and his reply.

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?31824-New-Rules-FAQ-Errata-Website-Discussion-Thread

GL!

[baskinders]

Why you wouldn't use two different words, like "attacks" for the overall term and something like "Combat Flip" for the melee/range attacks and save all the confusion? Be a rewrite of some cards but the longer you leave it go the more cards you'd have to change in the future cause it really doesn't make sense to use the same word for two different game mechanics. There's no capitalization when your talking to someone...

The same issue for me has come up with using the words "Walk" (used in reference to the specific (1) Walk action or performing a Walk which is some type of movement but not specifically (1) Walk action), "Bury/Buried" (refers to the act of making a model buried, also to the state of being buried, also refers to a number of talents (Mortimer & Guild Hounds) neither of which actually put a model in the Buried state) and "damaging" (the new errata steps of how to resolve damage/wounds has three different steps that talk about performing triggers when damage is caused/reduced/inflicted, but when do triggers that occur when "damaging" a model, with no other qualifications, happen).

I know it's very hard to maintain terminology in a set of rules, I think every business can relate to that when trying to put together policies etc. And it sounds lame to complain about it but it's super important in a rules set cause otherwise it leads to confusion, which leads to differing interpretations which leads to even lamer "debates" over how something should be interpreted and played rather than debating over the best combo of cool toys you can whoop your mate with within the clearly defined rules set.

My opine for today anyway.

[ravenborne]

Why you wouldn't use two different words, like "attacks" for the overall term and something like "Combat Flip" for the melee/range attacks and save all the confusion?

I expect its one of those things that comes up when a company designs it's first game and learns from it. However, if there is a chance to change it without too much overhaul, it might be worth it. Otherwise, we should just run with it.