Opposed Duel Cheating Fate then Using Soulstones questoin

[darthnoir]

Played in my first Malifaux tournament this weekend at KublaCon.

I am curious as to the "correct" order an Opposed Duel is resolved. I think we may have played it wrong.

Player A flips a 6 of rams for a total of 10 of rams

Player B flips a 5 of crows for a total of 9 of crows

Player B opts not to Cheat fate as Player A will have -3 twist on their damage flip.

Player A then Cheat's fate with a 13 of Rams changing their total 17 of Rams.

Player B has a change of heart and then opts to Use a Soul Stone to add to their defensive flip.

I thought that was not correct. I was under the belief that once the "losing" player opts to pass, they may neither cheat fate nor use soul stones regardless what the "winning" player does after they pass.

Was I mistaken?

[Jester262]

no you weren't. once you pass you can't cheat or use soulstones

[Sybaris]

That just confused me...

So in order to use a soulstone you must always cheat fate?

That's what we're lead to believe when reading your chain of thought.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Sybaris

[Ausplosions]

That just confused me...

So in order to use a soulstone you must always cheat fate?

That's what we're lead to believe when reading your chain of thought.

No-one said that.

The losing player in a Duel can choose to, in this order, Cheat Fate and then, (if they wish) use a Soulstone.

The winning player can then choose to do the same.

But if the first (losing) player decides not to cheat, he cannot then use a soulstone after the other (winning) player has cheated fate/used a soulstone.

The only exception to all this is when a player is casting a spell. In that instance the caster must set the total (by Cheating fate/using soulstones) before the opponent can resist (who can then cheat fate/use soulstones)..

[DeusInnomen]

The order of events is exactly as follows:

Each player in a duel gets exactly one chance to cheat/soulstone, starting with the loser of the duel after the initial flip. Each player has the option to Cheat Fate from their hand, and then if they have the ability to Use Soulstone, they may use a Soulstone to flip a card. This order is explicit; once the player decides to use a Soulstone, they cannot Cheat Fate after that even if they really want to and "meant to do it". Once you have decided to Cheat Fate or not, and (if capable) once you've decided to use a Soulstone or not, you are done.

This is important because the winner of the duel gets to Cheat Fate second and may cheat in a card with a desirable suit for a trigger. This happens often when dealing with Onslaught, Trigger Happy or Whirlwind as was discussed the other day here on the forums. Once the winner Cheats Fate, the duel is completed and the loser does not get to respond.

You do not have to Cheat Fate to use a Soulstone, both options are optional.

One last point: when the loser in the duel chooses to pass, they also have to declare at that point if they're using a trigger or not.

Edited to Add: This refers to a Strike duel, of course. As Ausplosions mentions, Cast duels operate differently. The caster makes their flip, then cheats/Soulstones and declares a trigger. If the spell meets the casting requirements, the caster is done and now the defender does a resist flip, then cheats/Soulstones and declares a trigger. If the defender resists successfully, the spell is resisted. There is no responding to that casting of the spell by the caster.

Edited May 31, 2012 by DeusInnomen

[darthnoir]

Thank you for your answers. I thought I understood how this worked, but the Judge for the event stated otherwise.

And as every good Death Marshall knows...never argue with the Judge

[Ozz]

The other point that may be relevant is that as said you get one chance to cheat/use soul stone, but you must cheat first and then stone, you can not cheat after stoning the flip.

[Sybaris]

Quite informative.

Here's how i was wrong, i thought that the cheat fate and use soulstone were different steps, so that in the first step, the looser would cheat fate, then the winner...and after that we'd see for soulstones in the same order. It did work for us, so we didn't dig into that until i read this thread .

Thanks.

[Keltheos]

Sounds like it's covered!

[Count Domar]

This is good to know as I was always playing it the way Sybaris stated it. That would definitely change things.