Leveticus vs. LCB

[Soulless Life]

So, I'm in a league, and have a challenge coming up. This guy is 99.99% going to play Chompy. (He plays Chompy, Pandora, and Lillith... I know, right?)

So, pre-errata, this matchup was just not feasible. LCB would slingshot in and murder Levi and his waif before anything else happened if he got initiative.

Now that the slingshot has been slightly neutered, how can I survive with the slow old man and his slow, slightly hollow girls?

Been thinking of using a Guardian to safeguard at least one of my Waifs, but I hate to spend 7 points on that.

He has been running (and again, I'm 99% sure he'll be running this)...

Dreamer/LCB

3 Daydreams

2 Stitched or Teddy

Coppelius

Teddy

He may be adding in the twins.

He's very adept at protecting the Dreamer most of the time, and zipping around doing whatever he wants.

I'm planning on running something along the lines of...

Levi

Obligatory Canine Remains

Collodi+Marrionettes

Guardian

Watcher/Necropunk/Wicked Doll/etc.

Figuring to match some speed with speed, with Leveticus dealing all the damage he can each turn.

He's been giving me trouble when playing Viks, I was wondering if a change of pace would be better. Or should I just tweak the Viks list? Only have Outcasts (as far as I'm concerned, Collodi is an outcast). I also have jsut about everything Vik can take but Misaki.

Any suggestions/thoughts/well-wishes? This is going to be a challenge game, so will be worth a fairly ridiculous amount of League Points if I am able to win. Will also put me up about 3 rungs on the ladder.

Thanks very much.

[Trevelyan]

Now that the slingshot has been slightly neutered, how can I survive with the slow old man and his slow, slightly hollow girls?

Been thinking of using a Guardian to safeguard at least one of my Waifs, but I hate to spend 7 points on that.

First of all, the Guardian isn't worth 7ss to protect a waif. Secondly, neither Levi nor the waifs are as slow as you think.

The waifs start each turn within 6 inches of Levi. If they double move to within 10" of him (as required) they can still be 19" apart (assume they are completely within 10", further if only within 10" - I can't recall which it is). Add in a little cover and it should be a challenge for a melee focused crew, especially one which tends to group around the master, to target them both. Alternatively, have them both go defensive and they can still be 15" apart, potentially with cover, and inflicting negative flips on any attacker.

Levi himself gets a free move at the cost of 2wds. Levi likes to take wds, so in practice you can easily move him 6" per activation and still fire off two spells. Starting somewhere central that gives him a good threat range, in fact the initial 3" movement could well be enough if Levi appears somewhere central or otherwise near a good target.

Don't forget that Levi can drop the Dreamer with a single spell, and that LCB isn't particularly good on defence. Crucially, don't let your opponent forget it either. Getting close to a waif in the hope of killing it risks putting key models within Levi's kill zone. Alternatively, getting close to one waif in the hope of taking Levi out when he reappears just gives him the opportunity to spawn beside the other waif 15" away (with 6" move he has a 16" minimum threat range so can return fire from there) and send the waifs further off. Played right your opponent could waste time chasing after the elusive Levi.

If you are worried, I';d be tempted to activate Levi early and deliberately not kill him. Keep a minion in range to finish him off at the end of the turn if necessary, but otherwise this gives you some breathing space, and means that your opponent has to kill off three models in one turn to end him. That alone might encourage them to focus on other objectives.

And it goes without saying, that keeping Levi alive won't necessarily win you the game any more than killing him wins it for the other player. Focus on your Strategy and Schemes, and if you can tempt your opponent to chase Levi, even if that means letting them catch him in turn 5 or 6, it could be worthwhile letting him die if it leaves you free to snag some valuable VPs.

[col_blitzwell]

the way i would play my levi is let him come to me.

my list

levi

dog-3

alice-8

molly-9

2 punk zombies-8

give you 6 ss ( if you can i would take a grave spitit given you 5 ss)

alice is great waif protection and the punks are good at melee and when they die you get a counter. molly is basicly a spell user taking any spell she need and give levi +3 walk is great. i would take hold out and the one where levi has to die 3 time. and just use your waifs as lures.

or

Leveticus

Ashes and Dust 13ss Unique

Canine Remains2ss

Rusty Alyce 8ssUnique

Steampunk Abomination 3ss

Steampunk Abomination 3ss

6 ss left

and do a slow push

Edited May 21, 2012 by col_blitzwell

[tadaka]

To have any hope at fighting him you must have more models on the table. The slingshot works just fine if he can out activate you and just does the work after you no longer have models to activate. Second protecting waifs with guardian does not work for crap. Its a bad use of 7ss. To even cast the protect spell you have to burn a 10 or get lucky. Each time they die you have to recast. A good chomp player can counter it by going after you when the spell is. Unfortunetly in the hands of a good dreamer player levi is still in a very very bad matchup.

[Soulless Life]

I haven't played against LCB since the errata came out (with Levi, anyways), so I'm still leary. All I remember is 'Dreamer wins initiative... Slingshots... Levi and the waifs die.'

I know how fast Levi is. Still not lightning fast, but surprisingly quick for a Wk3 model.

@Blitzwell- Molly and Punks aren't an option, I don't have them painted. Although she is next on the list.

I wasn't really wanting to take a Guardian, but like I said, I'm just leary because I keep having nightmares about the horrendous slingshot pre-errata. I do like the activate early and don't kill him idea. Just looking for ideas to weather the storm.

Have lots of alternate lists (one for each strategy... sometimes I have time on my hands), but I'm not going to list each and every one.

[tadaka]

"I do like the activate early and don't kill him idea. Just looking for ideas to weather the storm."

Be very careful when trying to not kill levi. Often when fighting him the other guy can out activate him and then when your out of activations take him down to 2 or 3 wounds. Not only will you not get a hand the next turn levi will have no wounds to be able to do much of any thing on the next turn as well.

Levi can be quick but he cant keep up with the true quick crews and those are the ones that will pick him and the waifs apart with no trouble.

[magicpockets]

Hate to be negative but the only change the errata has made to this match up is Levi dies in turn three instead of turn two. The problem is the lack of range on the waifs movement (despite what's said above), the most they can move away from Levi is under 12" each, which means that LCB dropped on Levi (who has a bigger base so more lateral range) can drop a stitched 6" towards each waif, each of which has a 6" range to kill them. You may get lucky with card flips (as the waifs are wp9) but it's not likely.

For me this match is the one hard counter match left in the system

---------- Post added at 09:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 AM ----------

The only real thing you can do is take Collodi in your crew, accept that Levi is going to die and then counter with some dolls to the face. And (of course) play to your objectives

[Oshova]

The only real thing you can do is take Collodi in your crew, accept that Levi is going to die and then counter with some dolls to the face. And (of course) play to your objectives

Yeah, not wasting SS on trying to keep Levi alive can be a good option to.

Or taking a Guardian to try and keep a Waif alive a turn longer, then mix in Collodi, and you've got a nice little 1-2 to defend yourself and strike back when the drop happens.

In my view, just taking a cache of 2 is fine if you are going this root. As Collodi doesn't really need them, and if you're accepting that Levi will fall over, then you're not wasting anything there. So then you're just maxing out on Minions to get your objectives, and get the VP you can to win.

Finally, taking Watchers (or Wardens when they come out) to rush your objectives before you can be stopped is a good option to, as with any crew it's all about maximizing your options for whatever Strategies and Schemes you get/choose.

[col_blitzwell]

a trick you could try leave levi on one wound that way he should die at end of turn and if waifs die than ss the damage but it's real a one use trick. or you can let him die but set up a ambush for LCB and crew when he goes after levi.

[Trevelyan]

Be very careful when trying to not kill levi. Often when fighting him the other guy can out activate him and then when your out of activations take him down to 2 or 3 wounds. Not only will you not get a hand the next turn levi will have no wounds to be able to do much of any thing on the next turn as well.

When you try not to kill Levi, you don't actually try not to kill him. The aim is to kill him by the end of the turn, but not necessarily to do it by the end of his activation (allowing for Unstable Necromancy). You keep a model around which can happily kill Levi late in the turn if it appears safe to do so.

The aim of not killing him early is simply to give you the option, if absolutely necessary, to have him live for the turn, resummon the waifs and stick around. It just makes things harder for the other player and can often force their hand (either they definitely focus on the waifs to prevent you refreshing your hand, and so allow other models to achieve objectives unmolested, or else they decide that it isn't worth the effort so Levi doesn't get killed.

As for Levi not being a threat when low on wounds, remember that Unnatural Wasting, while not the easiest spell to cast when low on cards, doesn't cost wounds to use and puts the fear into a lot of (sensible) players. Alternatively, you can use an injured Levi to secure some VPs.

[Soulless Life]

Yes, I understand about Levi's dying cycle and no cards. I know he has to die. I was referencing Trevelyan's idea of not killing him and letting a minion do it at the end. I just didn't feel like typing it out.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Maljra]

Another option is to take Bete Nior and just not take her out until you are ready. Cause every turn Levi should die which means just about every turn you can bring her out. So if LCB rushes Levi and kills him poof he now has Bete to deal with who is placed in base with LCB and gets her full activation next if you like.

[Ozz]

Levi is soulless so non living if im not mistaken, which means Bete can not come out from him?

[Maljra]

This is true, but the waifs are undead. So I guess it can still sorta work cause Bete will come out when they are sacrificed at the end of the turn. So not as efficient but still an idea.

[magicpockets]

Waifs have a rule if they move more than 10" away from Levi the sacrifice - I've used that to deliver Bette with great effect many times. Just make sure your 2nd waif is protected obviously

[Saint Norton]

Now that LCB can't jump you top of turn 1 while you're still in your deployment zone I feel this match up (while not great) has gotten a lot better. It's to the point where it's at least worth playing through.

I feel like Jackdaw with his no cheat aura sitting just over 6" in front of Levi and a cache of 4-5 stones to cheat the defense that you might be able to lure LCB out and survive the barrage of attacks.

[Guardian]

Levi crew with Jack Daw?

Interesting, isnt that a bit risky? Since JD relies on having cards in hand...

[Cunning]

I've had lots of success with JD. I find that with Levi I tend to have plenty of low cards that can be used to keep jack daw alive and also just generally plenty of cards. Especially after Levi's activation as he tends to draw a card for pretty much every spell cast. So you will usually draw 3 cards whenever he activates. Having severed ties on the enemy master means that if Levi is close by that master is basically dead.

[Saint Norton]

On the plus side, you never feel bad pitching high cards to keep jack daw alive, it's not like you were going to carry them over to next turn anyways...