Lilith as my next master

[Joel]

Hi all,

I began my malifaux experience with the dreamer, and 4 months on (to the day IIRC) I find myself wanting to try a different master.

With the dreamer I have always had the luxury of deciding how many activations I would have in a particular turn, as well as having control of the movement and placement of my crew to an extent that I could easily control what models could be exposed to retaliation.

With most other masters, all the models start in play and need to get places under their own steam - and of course are vulnerable whilst they get there...which brings me to my question, and the reason for this thread:

Quality vs. quantity in a Lilith list.

When it comes to spending those soulstones, Lilith's crew seems to be one where this debate is rather pertinent because of the ability to grow models from one state to another over the course of an encounter. But since growing is time and activation intensive, could it simply be better to take models that are themselves both harder to remove from play and better at killing enemy models and pick schemes accordingly?

my current thinking is away from the grow list and to include models with ranged potential as well as healing abilities to offset having a low model count - and to treat this as the starting place for list design (with drop outs and subs for particular strategies).

At 35 stones that "hub" would be:

Lilith, 8 stones

von schill

lelu

lilitu

tuco

With a subs bench of:

Primodial magic

3 terror tots

?????????

Where do you stand on the quality/quantity spectrum with lilith? What else would you add to my subs bench?

[Ozz]

I have very limited experience with Lilith so far, but my preferences have been to have the magic for the extra card (draw 8 discard 1 is awesome! ) Also the ability to transposition Lilith to anywhere within 24" is a threat for your opponent to not ignore even if you don't bother with the spell. And i have generally taken lots of tots, oddly i took more tots when i wasn't playing a grow list.

[Sarsnick]

Here's my experience.

Terror Tots are awesome models. 3SS, Flay Trigger, significant, and the ability to Double move using 1 AP.

They do come out of nowhere and should be considered.

Also Young Nephs have flight and Diving Attack just like Mature, so they should not also be discounted.

Just worried you are packing too many high SS models in there.

[Undisclosed]

Interesting core, and i'll be interested to see if anyone more experienced with Lilith than myself posts here to add some advice.

IMO, i would probably not use Von Schill in a Lilith list. He is pretty awesome, but you might be better off switching him for 3 tots and a Primordial magic because those tots are good, and the extra card is great. I just feel VS is brilliant with access to SS, but Lilith will probably want some as well, so it's just diluting both of their potential down.

Just my thoughts.

[Alex]

I play Lilith a fair amount, and I would agree with Undisclosed in that I have never found myself wanting Von Schill in a Lilith crew, doubly so now that Tuco is available to fill essentially the same role for 3 fewer stones. Also, Sarsnick is dead on about the Tots. I rarely if ever wish I had taken fewer Tots! Remember you can also turn a Tot into another Lelu or Lilitu sometimes.

The only time I don't take Primordial Magic is when I am running Lilith with avatar attached, and even then I seldom manifest before turn 4 so it may be worthwhile. Looking forward to Arcane Effigy though!

Good luck, and have fun with Lilith!

[Q'iq'el]

Quality vs. quantity in a Lilith list.

When it comes to spending those soulstones, Lilith's crew seems to be one where this debate is rather pertinent because of the ability to grow models from one state to another over the course of an encounter. But since growing is time and activation intensive, could it simply be better to take models that are themselves both harder to remove from play and better at killing enemy models and pick schemes accordingly?

You are starting off with the wrong assumption here. Growth lists, as much as I'm against them, are about using Growing ability to further gain on Quality of an already Quality over Quantity list.

If you could take 8~10 Tots and Grow them all, then we could perhaps speak about Quantity, but you drop your Young and Mature Nephilim only to get 2 Matures in the turn 1, hoping that will overload the opponent from the second turn on. That is not a huge improvement in quantity and you pay for Nekima and/or BBS only to enable it, so there's not much in terms of savings either.

The simple truth is that you can take Nephilim, grow/mature them opportunistically (only if you have a spare card and action and you happen to have Blood Counters nearby) and you'll still be running a quality over quantity list.

IMO the right way to see Lilith crew is to understand Nephilim are the workhorse and what you take on the top of them are enablers. BBS improves fighting ability and allows to better integrate non-nephilim to the list (Waldgeist etc.). Nekima is all about giving Tots even more speed and Growing them easier. I still have to figure Tuco out, but I'd say from my first impression that he is a table control model - something Lilith lacks (Waldgeist fulfill the role, but you need forests for them to work). In the end, you want to own all these models, but you want to swap them depending on the Strategy and the opponent, while starting with healthy 3~5 Tots and perhaps a Waldgeist(s) and YN if the Strategy seems to be going towards early combat.

As for the Totems, Primordial Magic is a no-effort totem. You take it and you rip benefits, with keeping it alive being the only worry. Cherub is far more useful if you actually plan on executing tricky maneuvers or precisely timed Transpositions, as it can easily keep up with the crew and can extend the Transposition range with ease.

If you want to use Transposition and Illusionary Forest to quickly fulfill both of Lilith's manifestation requirements, Cherub is of more help as well. Simply because you can place yourself faster and better to pull the transposition off.

If your opponent has a fast up-to-your-face crew that will engage you anyway, the Cherub's advantage goes away and Primordial Magic is better in every aspect, I think (perhaps there are some exceptions to this).

Again, you want to own both totems most of the time.