advice against stitched togethers

[bashamer]

So I'm playing Collodi in a league and people don't feel the stitched is very fair.

And they are right, Stitched + Collodi is pretty damn silly. And I have yet to use his spell, trigger & 0 actions. So far I've just used "does not die" "rotten contents" "gamble your life", I think I even did melee attacks (that was dumb).

So killing the stitched before it activates really doesn't slot it down. It just activates and then a doll runs up to kill it again for the re-activate. sure I lose a marionette worth of activation but I trade that for a stitched worth.

Killing it at range would work (unless I win initiative & remember he has a 0 action)

But after that I don't know.

What advice could I give my opponents so that they feel like they can do something against the stitched.

[EnternalVoid]

Oh yes, Stitched Together are all sorts of silly. That said it is also one of the few models Collodi can use and more so one of the few that has some durability and more than a small handful of wounds.

Creepy Fog is a great 0 Action ability. 4" aura means shooting can't target him unless they get into it and he can protect models behind him from shooters. Sure they might be able to move and see the target but at the very least you can limit their number of shots by forcing them to move first.

His spells are not used alot, Abduction is sometimes to protect an important short model that you need to keep alive till next turn but I have seen deepest fear cast often enough. It is generally when Collodi gives the Stitched together casting expert so they can cast this spell in addition to Gamble your Life.

Not advice against I can give some. First try to stay at least just over 6" away, every movement action a Stitched Together takes is one less for his attacks. Second, try to keep him over 4" from Collodi if all possible. With out the +2 Wp from Collodi they are a bit easier to handle. Anything that can move the Stitched would help, or at least force Collodi to use his speed. If you force a Collodi player to use his speed to deal with something he will leave the Stitched Together fairly far behind. Often when they use 3 AP to move to try and catch up is when I spring and try to kill them with some range attack, preferable from outside their 6". That way when they reactivate they have to move at least once to get into range, limiting their threat to a single attempt.

Paralyze is also a nice too if you can get it off. If you Paralyze their first activation, then no matter what they will only get one, as reactivate can only go off once. If you kill and paralyze them after their first action, it cancels out their Reactivate but technically they could kill the Stitched together again to regain Reactivate, as long as they had not declared they were activating the Stitched Together for the second time yet.

Sadly one of the best piece of advice is to bear with it. If you can time your attack against it you can at least limit its final attacks but there is little else you can do about it.

[Cornelious1424]

Try to kill them before they activate. They may still get to reactivate from Does not Die but at least they will only get one activation instead of two. The other way I've found to be great, is to take a hammer to the model! You may not want to let your opponents in on that secret though =P.

[bashamer]

why would they only get 1 activation ?

[Cornelious1424]

In a game where you can kill your own models, that makes my point relatively useless.

[Ozz]

Stitched only Gain Reactivate if they have already activated from does not die, so killing them before they activate means they do not get a second activation.

The bit here that confuses me is killing them to skip a paralysed? How does that work as they do not die? And as for your second point Bashamer, does not die has already triggered so using a doll to kill it again does nothing but waste activations, whilst the model will still not be dead because of does not die, it does not trigger again to give the re activate, as you can not be affected by the same ability twice.

[Mister_Q]

Stitched only Gain Reactivate if they have already activated from does not die, so killing them before they activate means they do not get a second activation.

They can. The trick is: you kill them early on; they activate; a model friendly to the Stitched kills the Stitched again (not hard with only 1 Wd); Stitched gets Reactivate and has a second go.

I still try to take them out early - it's generally easier before they get their Fog up and if it makes another model waste an action to give it Reactivate then so much the better. Killing them from range is better as it means they're using actions to get to you (and less actions attacking).

Stubborn and Immune to Influence characters are a good choice to send after them since their nastiest attacks are Wp based. Also try and keep some high cards handy to cheat the Gamble flips - it's nice when you can send the damage back to the Stitched.

[the junkie]

I was his opponent in one of those games where I found out just how broken stitches can be. Stitched in a good cluster of my models, they move much faster than expected in a Collodi list, then he had like 20 attacks to do 1 damage to his does not die Stitched and look for a crow in his deck to spread his rotten contents around.

[bashamer]

The bit here that confuses me is killing them to skip a paralysed? How does that work as they do not die? And as for your second point Bashamer, does not die has already triggered so using a doll to kill it again does nothing but waste activations, whilst the model will still not be dead because of does not die, it does not trigger again to give the re activate, as you can not be affected by the same ability twice.

Does Not Die is not a lingering effect.

Each and every time the Stitched Together is killed, Does Not Die triggers.

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?25899-Stitched-Paralyzed-Killed-Reactivate-Killed-again-Reactivate&highlight=stitched+together

yeah, that was bad, Lilith, Mature Nephlim & 2 young Nemplims; 25% chance of 2 damage, .5 damage per attack; 4 targets-> 2 total damage per attack (and ignoring armor / defense).

so yeah the doll fest went nuts w/ fast / melee expert etc. Free moderate damage for everyone

Edited May 12, 2012 by bashamer

[Lord Shaper]

I've always played if if a Stitched is Paralyzed and DnD is activated then they loose the reactivate to get rid of Paralyze but if they get killed again they are classed as already reactivated since if they didn't have the first reactivate then they would still be Paralyzed

If that makes sense!

[Ozz]

It makes sense, but i don't think it is entirely correct, paralysed and reactivate do not cancel each other out, until you actually go to use reactivate and use an activation to do nothing, so you still get the chance to remove the paralysed if you have a way to, such as a doppelgänger to copy a witchlings dispel magic or something.

And thanks for that link Bashamer

[Vonvilkee]

Hans has a 16" ranged shot and ignores the creepy fog, he has always worked well for me. If you keep a decent ram Hans can reduce a stitched to does not die in a single activation.

[Headcase2]

Minion Hamelin's Irresistible Dance is your friend: Sure you can (re)activate. Have a nice walk...

[CannonFodder]

Try to kill them before they activate. They may still get to reactivate from Does not Die but at least they will only get one activation instead of two. The other way I've found to be great, is to take a hammer to the model! You may not want to let your opponents in on that secret though =P.

This does not always work, Its legal to do teh following

• Opponent kills your Stitched, DnD kicks in with no reactivate
  
• You activate your dead stitched
  
• You re-kill your stitched, and DnD Kicks in giving reactivate
  
• Activate dead Stitched a second time
  

If you lose Gamble your life on the Stitcheds first activation you don't even have to spend an action to re-kill him since he died after he activated.

[EnternalVoid]

I've always played if if a Stitched is Paralyzed and DnD is activated then they loose the reactivate to get rid of Paralyze but if they get killed again they are classed as already reactivated since if they didn't have the first reactivate then they would still be Paralyzed

If that makes sense!

It makes sense, but i don't think it is entirely correct, paralysed and reactivate do not cancel each other out, until you actually go to use reactivate and use an activation to do nothing, so you still get the chance to remove the paralysed if you have a way to, such as a doppelgänger to copy a witchlings dispel magic or something.

It does work this way and if it did then there would be slightly less complains about Does Not Die.

Page 34 of the rules Manual tells you how Paralyze and Reactivate work, just like Fast and Slow the moment you have both, they cancel out. The rule goes further and says "A model is not affected by both Reactivate and Paralyzed at the same time." So the moment you are Paralyzed it actually cancels out the reactivate, so you have nothing at this point. So if you get killed again in this turn, Does Not Die still triggers giving you reactivate. The rules for reactivate say "This model may activate a second time this turn during the normal activation sequence. A model can only activate a second time through Reactivate once per turn".

As your original Reactivate was canceled by Paralyze you never got to activate a second time, thus you never fulfilled the second half of the reactivate rule about only doing so once per turn.

[Q'iq'el]

@EternalVoid The way Fast and Slow work has been clarified on these forums though. I don't have the link right now, but we've been told these abilities stack and get resolved only the moment model activates and don't cancel each other immediately)

In other words the RM wording isn't valid anymore, I think. I'd expect Reactivate and Paralyzed work the same as Fast and Slow, but I'm not sure of the exact wording right now.

[Mister_Q]

Hans has a 16" ranged shot and ignores the creepy fog

The fog isn't terrain. Shouldn't it would block Hans' LoS the same way it blocks Lilith's Master of Malifaux?

[Q'iq'el]

The fog isn't terrain. Shouldn't it would block Hans' LoS the same way it blocks Lilith's Master of Malifaux?

Hans Goggles work against spells and talents rather than terrain (Hunter works against terrain, but doesn't work against spells and talents), so they work against Stitched' or Nico's fog. About the only advantage he has, but that makes him somewhat of a counter (not only Stiched are exposed, but also models hidden by them).

[EnternalVoid]

@EternalVoid The way Fast and Slow work has been clarified on these forums though. I don't have the link right now' date=' but we've been told these abilities stack and get resolved only the moment model activates and don't cancel each other immediately)[/quote']

Is there any chance you can find the link? I tried to go and find it this evening as finding it for our group would be important *as we have at least 3 people that are going or are using Stitched Togethers*. I spend actually a couple hours between other things looking through the search functions, Ratty's post logs, rule discussion forum, and the resolved rule sections.

The only stuff I have found related have been two discussions, the older one back around August last year. I am thinking you are making reference to this this thread;

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?24851-Fast-Slow-Spellbreaker

But I have found posts, from Febuary of this year, that have Ratty and Keltheos both counteracting it, one of which Keltheos strait out says it is a Ruling Reversal about stacking;

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?28596-Fast-Slow-and-stacking-Stacking&p=365871&viewfull=1#post365871

From posts after this date from Ratty he has said that if slow is applied to a model that has fast, the slow fizzles and fast disappears from the model effective *apparently Doppleganger can't mimic Fast if someone game a model slow first even if it is on their card according to one post*. Here is an example where he was saying that you could not remove a Slow effect from a model that had been both Slow and Fast *him saying they fizzled*

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?28735-FAST-talent-and-Slow-Effect&p=367480&viewfull=1#post367480

These are the only real points I could find despite all the digging. If you can find the ruling that you were talking about it would help alot.

Edited May 15, 2012 by EnternalVoid

[IDislexiaHave]

What I do against stitched is by forcing them to gamble on my master (which I play Lilith) because if they don't they will die the next turn via my caster killing them. An if not the gamble against me I'm wp 6 and cheat and soul stone if nessecary to beat them. My advice to those playing against stitched is to try your hardest to make them target your master due to your ss usage advantage or any model with the use soulstone ability. And if not keep your low will power models out of their line of sight, if thats not possible then try to kill them as fast as possible, to reduce the amount of activations/gambles they get to preform. Also your opponent could possibly save high cards to defend against gamble to even further increase his odds of winning, even though wp 8 stitched are hard to beat.

Edited May 25, 2012 by IDislexiaHave

[Q'iq'el]

But I have found posts, from Febuary of this year, that have Ratty and Keltheos both counteracting it, one of which Keltheos strait out says it is a Ruling Reversal about stacking;

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?28596-Fast-Slow-and-stacking-Stacking&p=365871&viewfull=1#post365871

Thanks for that link. I actually missed the reversal of the previous ruling. Seems the correct way to play is rather clear and much simpler now. The living Errata cannot come fast enough.

[Soulless Life]

Effects that sacrifice instead of kill. (Unless there's an errata I missed.)

Leveticus. Unnatural Wasting then Entropic Transformation (or is it Necrotic Unmaking? Can never remember which is which unless I've got the card in front of me. Whichever one sacs a model with 2 wounds or less). Get them within 18" and of Leveticus (Walk, Necromantic Sacrifice), and LOS, and watch them go away with no DND.

[EnternalVoid]

Thanks for that link. I actually missed the reversal of the previous ruling. Seems the correct way to play is rather clear and much simpler now. The living Errata cannot come fast enough.

I completely agree. I mean, at least Wyrd responds, and is fairly active in making rules. Just wish there was an easier way to find them.

Effects that sacrifice instead of kill. (Unless there's an errata I missed.)

Leveticus. Unnatural Wasting then Entropic Transformation (or is it Necrotic Unmaking? Can never remember which is which unless I've got the card in front of me. Whichever one sacs a model with 2 wounds or less). Get them within 18" and of Leveticus (Walk, Necromantic Sacrifice), and LOS, and watch them go away with no DND.

If I remember right this works, sadly my cards are out of reach at the second. As long as they have not died once and triggered Does Not Die as it gives an effect that prevents sacrifice. So anything that sacs them before it triggers should be able to get rid of them.

[Forar]

So, aside from forcing a sacrifice, there seems to be effectively no way to prevent them from getting 2 full activations, as long as your opponent is willing to spend an AP from another model/figure/unit to 'kill' them again?

I had this come up on the weekend when I fell into my opponent's trap. Having killed the ST before its activation, he attacked my master with (Gamble Your Life, I think?) which I cheated to 'win', at which point it got to go again.

To be clear, as a 7 (?) SS minion, I get that it's supposed to be powerful, and as a primarily Guild player I have little room for comment in terms of efficient and powerful minions, but it seems like dealing with ST really just results in costing them one AP from another unit (or if you're dumb, costing me one AP for the right to get attacked twice more >.< ).

Now, it's not a mistake I intend to make again (though I suspect I will), but I just want to be clear that one way or another (again, barring a sacrifice) it's pretty much a given ST's are going twice in a turn?

[Soulless Life]

5ss. Yes, they're ridiculous. At least you can get the points from them in Slaughter now, though.