Avatar Colette, Shell Game and Decoy

[vitriol]

Some things I've been having problems wrapping my head around. :Hiding_Puppet:

Just some clarifications first, this is how I think the rules are meant to work, correct me if I am wrong:

1:Whilst not revealed as a Decoy, each Avatar Colette shares the same (physical) card, ergo, each Avatar Colette model shares the same wound stat.

2:When an unexposed Decoy model suffers wounds or damage, the wounds are resolved with Avatar Colettes card and then the model is revealed as a decoy (resolve damage, then reveal as a decoy)

when an unexposed Decoy model is killed or sacraficed, the model is revealed as a decoy before being removed from play. In other words, a Colette, Avatar of Deception was not just killed/sacraficed (reveal as a decoy, then remove from play)

3:The seperate Avatar Colette models do not share effects (each is an individual model and is affected individually)

4:From Shell Game

When these models activate the first time during the Activation step, all 3 activate simultaneously

is stating:

During their first activation (immediately upon manifesting) all Avatar Colettes activate simultaneously, and on no turn after do they activate simultaneously.

and is not saying:

All Avatar Colettes activate simultaneously.

And then just a quick rules questions:

If an unrevealed Decoy is revealed during its activation (Wicked and disengaging strikes, Quick Draw, etc) what happens?

Upon gaining a new card, does a model gain a new set of general AP?

Thanks in advance.

Edited April 11, 2012 by vitriol

[Kadeton]

1. Yep.

2. That's my interpretation also.

3. Yep.

4. It's stating that they activate simultaneously every turn. However, if one of them receives Reactivate (through the death of a Performer, presumably, since I can't see how else they would do it) only that one activates again, not all three of them.

5. If a Decoy is revealed during its activation, its card is replaced with a Decoy card, it loses Fast, and it now must spend AP if it wants to Pass. It will lose one general AP, not gain a new set of AP - it's essentially like a Replace effect.

[vitriol]

4. It's stating that they activate simultaneously every turn.

Reading through again

Spells cast by one Colette, Avatar of Deception model cannot be cast by the remaining Colette, Avatar of Deception models during their simultaneous activation

Yeah, this rule simply wouldn't work if that wasn't the case.

The reason I interpreted it otherwise, is that it is seemed an unnecessarily convoluted way to say that they activate simultaneously.

Also, keeping it in one thread,

6:Does the limit of 6 general AP for their activations extend to any activations gained as a result of Reactivate? (figure it does, but I'm hopeful otherwise)

Edited April 11, 2012 by vitriol

[magicpockets]

The 6AP will be across an activation (usually simultaneous across all three models - hence the "6") and won't affect new activations gained through reactivate

[vitriol]

Fair enough, one more and I think that'll be about it.

7:Although the Decoy models replace their card with Colettes and can perform actions as if they were Colette, for the purposes or schemes or strategies, they are not Colette

Example: An unrevealed decoy killing an opponents leader model would not gain the additional 2VP for contain power, but it could (if such an interact existed) perform a master specific interaction.

[magicpockets]

I'd say that until they are revealed they can earn VPs (etc) but once they are revealed as decoys they can't - that's just my best guess though mate

[Kadeton]

Yeah, I'm in the same boat as pockets. They share the stat card until they're revealed, so for all intents and purposes they are Colette until that point.

Edit: expanding on that, if you used a decoy to kill the opposing Master, and your opponent said "Oh, you get Contain Power" and you said "Um, no, actually..." that would reveal that Colette to be a decoy - which isn't part of the rule, so I doubt it would work that way. Speculation!

Edited April 11, 2012 by Kadeton

[vitriol]

Thanks for your input guys.

[ooshawn]

I haven't ever used, seen her avatar in action, or read the entry in a long time. This post brings up several questions for me. So can one of the models take all 6 ap? What happens if one the the three models takes enough wounds to die? Is this avatar as hard to kill as when unmanifested? I really never understood any aspect of this avatar so feel free to explain away. Thanks for your time

[Kadeton]

Using AP is a bit like the Dreamer and Chompy Bits - each individual model in the Colette trio can use up to 3 general AP (since they have Fast), but they can't use more than 6 combined. They all still activate, but can Pass for free - so you could use 3 AP on one, 2 on another and 1 on the third, for example, or 3 each on two of them and none for the third, or 2 each for all three, etc. If they get revealed as Decoys they lose Fast but they also lose the ability to Pass for free, so each revealed Decoy always eats 2 of the 6 available AP.

If one of the models takes enough wounds to die in a single hit (8 Wd), it's revealed as either the real Colette or a Decoy, then dies. From that point, it's gone (at least the rule doesn't say anything about it coming back). It also doesn't say what happens if the Decoy is subject to a Kill or Sacrifice effect once revealed - presumably it's killed or sacrificed, which means aColette is very vulnerable to Headshots (or similar) and Levi. Take out her Decoys and she's left with 3 AP and no ability to move around quickly.

If a model takes damage but is not killed, it's revealed as a Decoy or Colette. If a Decoy, any damage it suffers after that point is halved and applied to Colette instead.

Colette's Avatar is easier to kill than Colette by an enormous amount. She loses the ability to heal as a Slow to Die action, and the ability to Reactivate easily to get to safety later in the turn. She has to act very early in the turn, otherwise the enemy will tag her or her decoys with ranged fire, which seriously cuts down her AP and makes her easier to kill.

Imagine one of the three models is somewhere near your crew, and has already acted. Can your crew deal at least 1 Dg to a Df 6 model, and at least 16 damage to a Df 5 model with Armor +1? Congratulations, you just killed Avatar Colette. As an example, Lady J can do that by herself in a single activation. If you don't manage it that turn, it's okay... just keep going next turn. Either you'll get the Decoy again (in which case just chip away at Colette's health some more until she dies) or you get Colette herself (which would be dumb of the opponent, because she's even easier to kill that way).

The Avatar also cuts down on the mobility of the Showgirls crew, since they lose the ability to reposition with Illusionist. They also lose the ability to generate additional Soulstones.

I honestly cannot see any situation where the abilities of aColette would be more useful than Colette's normal powers. Lose all crew synergy and survivability for a bunch of card manipulation? Maybe... but it's very situational, and I'd rather spend the SS on an extra Dove.

I actually have a suspicion that there were errors in the printing of aColette's card - I think she's supposed to have Reactivate automatically (due to the frequent references to it elsewhere on her card) and all her decoys are supposed to be recreated every turn if they die (and placed within 3" of one of the surviving models, sort of like Levi and his waifs). I still wouldn't use her with those changes because the Showgirls really need to be able to move around, but she'd be a little more functional at least.

[CRC]

Using AP is a bit like the Dreamer and Chompy Bits - each individual model in the Colette trio can use up to 3 general AP (since they have Fast), but they can't use more than 6 combined. They all still activate, but can Pass for free - so you could use 3 AP on one, 2 on another and 1 on the third, for example, or 3 each on two of them and none for the third, or 2 each for all three, etc. If they get revealed as Decoys they lose Fast but they also lose the ability to Pass for free, so each revealed Decoy always eats 2 of the 6 available AP.

I thought that since decoy are no longer "Colette, Avatar of ...", they didn't count against the 6 AP.

[Q'iq'el]

This was my impression as well - the Decoys are no longer having the Shell Game rule, so clearly they have their own AP and act independently.

IMHO the way the rule is constructed if one of the "Colettes" gets revealed as a Decoy, the other two get to use 3 AP each.

[Kadeton]

Interesting interpretation! It would be much better if it turned out to work that way.

[ooshawn]

so what i'm taking away from this is what kadeton said, minus the part that decoys once revealed, slow the other Colette down by taking actions to pass. Yeah, I mean after looking at her entry and reading your replies, it seems like avatar Colette is terrible. This is a shame because she is easily my favorite master to play.

[CRC]

I'm not actually convinced that if an unrevealed Decoy suffers Dg/Wd that the damage is fully resolved before the Decoy is revealed.

Thematically, it always was a decoy, so it should resolve damage as a decoy.

Rules-wise, I don't know where "suffer" happens on the damage sequence, but I suspect it's before "Apply wound total to defending/affected model". Especially because it's possible the model is suffering Dg.

[Kelle341]

Rules-wise, I don't know where "suffer" happens on the damage sequence, but I suspect it's before "Apply wound total to defending/affected model". Especially because it's possible the model is suffering Dg.

I believe that is how it had been spelled out I fell the overall view is exactly the way you see it.

[Kadeton]

Bear in mind, as always, that suffering damage is different from flipping to see how much Dg an attack inflicts - one of the great unresolved areas of silliness and confusion in the ruleset is that damage and Dg are completely different things.

Damage is suffered once the whole damage resolution process is resolved, based on how many wounds the model actually lost. If an attack inflicts 6 Dg, which is reduced by Armor 2 and reduces the model's Wounds by 4, that attack has inflicted 4 damage.

[CRC]

This is part of my point actually. If it said "when it suffers damage", that would clearly be very late in the damage sequence.

Since it's "suffers Dg or Wd", thus I think the decoy is revealed before the damage is applied, and it will get reduced by armour and halved before being suffered as "damage" to Avatar Colette.