Justice + Lucius combo?

[SpiralngCadavr]

So, my opponent who's newer than I am tried using Lucius to pull Justice up, but it didn't work spectacularly. I'd appreciate any advice I could pass on.

The list:

Justice

Lucius

Judge

2 Guild Hounds

Austringer

(I think that was it)

vs.

McMourning

Grave Spirit

Dead Rider

Crooked Man

Desperate Merc

2x Night Terrors

Canine Remains

Punk Zombie

Top of the second turn (minor damage from first turn, only notable was the Desperate Merc is now Frantic ( on attacks, since he took damage):

Night terrors, Austringer, Hounds, Crooked Man were on one side, fighting over some ruins

Lucius was in the middle, taking cover behind a heavy pillar

Judge, Punk Zombie, and Dead Rider were on the other flank, neither close enough to attack each other, with the Grave Spirit hanging out with the Rider.

Justice was still in deployment (about 10" behind Lucius).

What ends up happening is, first the side skirmish is resolved, not a ton of damage on either side, though one dead hound.

Judge gets in to a better position to plant evidence on his flank.

This leaves Lucius and Justice, vs. McM, Grave Spirit, Remains, Dead Rider as the remaining unactivated models.

Lucius goes first, does minor damage, summons Justice, Punk Zombie charges her, does a little damage, she charges the Dead Rider, evades the punk zombie, gets the Ruder down to 1(hard to kill), is hit with flurry+ melee expert + poison 2 to get down to 3 health at the end of the turn and, in the process, burns 6(?) soulstones and 4 cards.

Then McMourning gets up to 8 body parts (but stalls out with an unlucky high flip of Dissection and nothing to cheat, which forces the activation to end). Also, I accidentally flipped from my hand instead of my deck, so there's a known 10:crows in my hand (meaning a rogue necromancy is ready).

Top of the 3rd, Guild gets initiative, Res re-flips, gets initiative, Dead Rider goes with another 4 attacks, with the final one getting through and killing Justice (3 cards used on both sides).

So, how would you (the Guild player) have played this? Is the list good/bad? What was a good plan, what wasn't? The thing that we realized afterward was that, if Justice had done moderate damage, Hard to Kill wouldn't have kicked in, so the Dead Rider could have been killed, but that would have still left Justice in a fairly vulnerable position.

One of the big questions is, I feel like my opponent's burning soulstones and cards too aggressively. I don't know if this is about hands, nor do I know if it's something where there's a good sense of when to do what, or is it just by feel?

Edited April 4, 2012 by SpiralngCadavr

[von Clausewitz]

Unless dead rider was already set to his 3rd purpose when lady justice activated he should not have had hard to kill. The purpose is not automatically changed when he loses wounds, it is only at the beginning of hours activation or if he casts adjust purpose.

[Jewomie]

So, i'm not sure where to start here... but i'll throw around some opinions of mine... maybe they're what you're looking for, maybe not... but i hope it helps...

When i run Lady J (especially if Lucius is involved) i run with a full 8 cashe. However, i save probably 5 of those for Defense flips only. I litterally have two piles of stones on the table... When i run her, sometimes i can run her a little too aggressive, so i like to keep a minimum of 4 stones available incase i get myself in a tight spot. So, typically i'm not burning many stones... maybe three or so when i REALLY need something dead (assassinate for example)

I love the Lucius trap with keeping lady J in the deployment zone... the thing your opponent should have done was take care to wait to do it until you had activated the immedeate threats. that way he could drop Justice in your face but not been charged and attacked... Or simply drop her in a less populated side, and let her kill her way toward McMourning that way.

(out of curiosity... how did justice charge right after the punk charged her? am i reading that wrong, or did she successfully make the flip to get away? you didn't specify, so i thought i would ask. )

Another trick i've done before was "hide" lady j in a Marshall's Coffin, then march his happy ass up the field and drop her that way. of course, this is risky since she'll come out at the start close phase, and if you lose the initiative flip, you could be in hot water... This is a good way to get the exorsist moving though... to counteract his slowness.

I also don't like to send lady j off alone... and when i run Lucius i take lots of guild guards, so typically (depending on the strat anyway) i try to devide into two groups... lady J and a guard or two... kept close enough to lucy that he can do his free walk/strike thing... and put Lucius in the other group with an austringer or guardian sometimes even the exicutioner or Nino...whatever i feel like doing. this way i'm not bunched up, but if crap hits the fan, i can get the others there quickly to help.

of course... in malifaux... sometimes everything i've said is complete crap and i burn all my stones just trying to kill baby Kade because that's all i have to do to win the game and we're in the bottom of T6... yeah... i'm still a little bitter about that day...

to sum up... i guess i cheat a lot... mostly only with Lady J and Lucius, unless i need to hit anyway... I don't waste stones on casting i really only use them on defense and beefing up a hit when it HAS to count... and his tactic was solid, his timing and placement was just was off.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Unless dead rider was already set to his 3rd purpose when lady justice activated he should not have had hard to kill. The purpose is not automatically changed when he loses wounds, it is only at the beginning of hours activation or if he casts adjust purpose.

Oh, my bad! Good thing we left the board in place. Looks like Justice has some fight left in her!

So, i'm not sure where to start here... but i'll throw around some opinions of mine... maybe they're what you're looking for, maybe not... but i hope it helps...

When i run Lady J (especially if Lucius is involved) i run with a full 8 cashe. However, i save probably 5 of those for Defense flips only. I litterally have two piles of stones on the table... When i run her, sometimes i can run her a little too aggressive, so i like to keep a minimum of 4 stones available incase i get myself in a tight spot. So, typically i'm not burning many stones... maybe three or so when i REALLY need something dead (assassinate for example)

Thanks,, noted.

I love the Lucius trap with keeping lady J in the deployment zone... the thing your opponent should have done was take care to wait to do it until you had activated the immedeate threats. that way he could drop Justice in your face but not been charged and attacked... Or simply drop her in a less populated side, and let her kill her way toward McMourning that way.

(out of curiosity... how did justice charge right after the punk charged her? am i reading that wrong, or did she successfully make the flip to get away? you didn't specify, so i thought i would ask. )

Sorry, yeah, that was the "evaded" note-- Justice got something like an 11 to defend when running away.

Another trick i've done before was "hide" lady j in a Marshall's Coffin, then march his happy ass up the field and drop her that way. of course, this is risky since she'll come out at the start close phase, and if you lose the initiative flip, you could be in hot water... This is a good way to get the exorsist moving though... to counteract his slowness.

Wow, crazy. I hadn't thought to use the coffins defensively.

I also don't like to send lady j off alone... and when i run Lucius i take lots of guild guards, so typically (depending on the strat anyway) i try to devide into two groups... lady J and a guard or two... kept close enough to lucy that he can do his free walk/strike thing... and put Lucius in the other group with an austringer or guardian sometimes even the exicutioner or Nino...whatever i feel like doing. this way i'm not bunched up, but if crap hits the fan, i can get the others there quickly to help.

of course... in malifaux... sometimes everything i've said is complete crap and i burn all my stones just trying to kill baby Kade because that's all i have to do to win the game and we're in the bottom of T6... yeah... i'm still a little bitter about that day...

to sum up... i guess i cheat a lot... mostly only with Lady J and Lucius, unless i need to hit anyway... I don't waste stones on casting i really only use them on defense and beefing up a hit when it HAS to count... and his tactic was solid, his timing and placement was just was off.

Cool, thanks. Hers, actually,

[Fastenhate]

The other big thing for Lady J is the awesomeness that is the riposte Df trigger. With all those melee attacks at her she should have gotten a few of those off. It is such a huge swing when it goes off and the attacking model is eating 6 dg.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Yeah, I don't remember seeing any masks, but there definitely could have been. Either way, since that was my mistake, we've agreed: looks like the Dead Rider didn't survive, so we're rewinding to the top of the turn with Justice having only taken damage from the Punk Zombie, and re-shuffling.

Looks like I'll need to survive without my Dead Rider and with Justice still in the fight...

[Bucket Monkey]

Not much really to add here, id try and fit in a student of conflict where possible, then first or second turn give judge melee expert and fast and chuck him into melee to hold up the opponent until the next turn when you can reinforce a fast lady j into melee, trusting on stones and riposte for defence.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Ah, neither of us have a student of conflict. Maybe we should proxy it...

[von Clausewitz]

If your friend is going to be using the Justice sling-shot on a regular basis it would be wise for her to invest in a Student of Conflict. Putting Justice in a vanguard position by herself is extremely dangerous unless she can be 100% sure of killing the biggest threat. SoC is the best way to do this.

SoC can also make the other Guild heavy hitters like Executioner and Judge into absolute monsters. Sending in a 'roided out 7-stone model with Lucius carries much less risk than sending in Justice but can be just as rewarding. Doing this also leaves Justice in your DZ as a threat or in a flanking position to eliminate your opponent's objective runners.

Paradoxically, Justice being one of the most straight forward masters in the game means she is one of the more complicated to use effectively. A lack of tricks, escapes, or movement shenanigans means that a slightly misplaced or ill-timed attack with Justice can be disastrous. The key thing to remember about Justice is that because she can kill basically any other model at will you do not need to rush her into combat. The patience to hold her back or move her into a strategic position rather than run headlong into your opponent is paramount for success with Justice.

In a game I played recently I kept Justice in my DZ the entire game except for turn 4 when i reinforced her into a position to kill my opponent's last Silurid to complete my Exterminate scheme, after which i promptly moved her back into my DZ (I won the game 6-0). The threat of Justice nearly anywhere on the board will drastically alter your opponent's own attempts at board control.

[SpiralngCadavr]

So, 4 points is really worth the "fast"?

Thanks for the tips

[von Clausewitz]

So, 4 points is really worth the "fast"?

Thanks for the tips

Only in specific situations or in combination with particular models. I personally would not take Student in a guild crew unless it also had Lucius.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Only in specific situations or in combination with particular models. I personally would not take Student in a guild crew unless it also had Lucius.

What particular synergy does Lucius have with the student? Sorry, I've only seen Lucius in action once, and never the student.

[von Clausewitz]

What particular synergy does Lucius have with the student? Sorry, I've only seen Lucius in action once, and never the student.

Because student must use an (all) action to grant (+1) fast he is typically left in the dust by the rest of your crew, so he usually only gets one to two turns of actual use. With Lucius you can either leave models in your DZ to get fast from the SoC then reinforce them into position, or you can reinforce the student into a central position where he can grant fast to nearby models.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Ah, thanks for the clarification, that make s a lot of sense.

[Brettqpublic]

Only in specific situations or in combination with particular models. I personally would not take Student in a guild crew unless it also had Lucius.

This has been my experience as well. An Executioner with Fast and Melee Expert being slung up field is a pretty nasty thing.

[Fastenhate]

This has been my experience as well. An Executioner with Fast and Melee Expert being slung up field is a pretty nasty thing.

Or the Judge with both buffs has the potential for 7 attacks (3 x bullets and blades or blades and bullets spells + melee expert attack).

[nilus]

Or the Judge with both buffs has the potential for 7 attacks (3 x bullets and blades or blades and bullets spells + melee expert attack).

In theory that is great, but in practice you need to have a hand full of masks or be flipping really good to pull that one off.

[SpiralngCadavr]

In theory that is great, but in practice you need to have a hand full of masks or be flipping really good to pull that one off.

Yeah, I swear, maybe other people have better luck, but I know I basically never have high masks when I want them.

[Brettqpublic]

Yeah, I swear, maybe other people have better luck, but I know I basically never have high masks when I want them.

This is why I don't use The Judge, Santiago or Nino with Lady J. If I get high Masks I want to hold them for Riposte.

That being stated don't underestimate the value of Use Soulstone. Last game I played my opponent flipped a 12 to hit Lady J with a minion, I cheated an 11 and used a SS and flipped a 2 of masks triggering Riposte and proceeded to kill said minion on a straight damage flip (Greatsword plus Sword Style).

[SpiralngCadavr]

This is why I don't use The Judge, Santiago or Nino with Lady J. If I get high Masks I want to hold them for Riposte.

That being stated don't underestimate the value of Use Soulstone. Last game I played my opponent flipped a 12 to hit Lady J with a minion, I cheated an 11 and used a SS and flipped a 2 of masks triggering Riposte and proceeded to kill said minion on a straight damage flip (Greatsword plus Sword Style).

That makes a lot of sense, and, yeah, triggers on soulstones are always a nasty surprise. One time, Justice got a 13:masks on a soulstone for defense against me. Boy, was I glad that it was defending when leaving melee!

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

This has been my experience as well. An Executioner with Fast and Melee Expert being slung up field is a pretty nasty thing.

Because student must use an (all) action to grant (+1) fast he is typically left in the dust by the rest of your crew, so he usually only gets one to two turns of actual use. With Lucius you can either leave models in your DZ to get fast from the SoC then reinforce them into position, or you can reinforce the student into a central position where he can grant fast to nearby models.

I get lots of use of fast from student because of these two posts so the 4ss is for about three placements of fast, in one of the hardest hitting crews well worth it.

[von Clausewitz]

I get lots of use of fast from student because of these two posts so the 4ss is for about three placements of fast, in one of the hardest hitting crews well worth it.

I was wondering when you were going to chime in, seeing as how you are probably the most vocal proponent of the SoC/Lucius slingshot on the forums. *wink*

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Lucius and soc with j or Sonia is devestating, :Hiding_Puppet:best trick guild has at 35ss games. It is one of favorite combos in the game because it is strong but has obvious weaknesses. 30ss much more situational. A pair of dogs are key for model count and significant model count, problem they usually sit back for late game vp grab. 20ss is a big core. Since i play late game with j i feel safe with 6 stones mainlyvised defensively.

The important part of using this kind of list is timing and threat. I love to throw out my 7ss+ minion roused first turn, usually kills something then tarpits a crew. Executioner can be good if you can engage a couole models otherwise Judge is my go to, if hand is right i cam get off a lot of attacks, plus with slow to die he is taking something with him.

I like the combo because it is highly adaptive and rarely does it play out the same way for me.

Spiraling i hope you make this event, I would be glad to show you some tricks with any of your crews. Burner is a nice henchman too.

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?30447-Portland-OR-35ss-Gaining-Ground-Tournament

Edited April 6, 2012 by Mr. Bigglesworth

[mcmourning san]

What spell does Lucius use to target Justice and move her with?

[von Clausewitz]

What spell does Lucius use to target Justice and move her with?

The spell is "Reinforcements." He does not target with the spell, it is simply "place a friendly model in its controller's deployment zone within 4"' with a Rg of 18.